Reloading .45-70 Gov't

Depends on what you are going to load... jacketed or cast?

As far as case lube, it's nothing but another step. I usually size my .45-70 brass on my single-stage press, tumble the brass to get the lube off, then assemble the rest of the round on my progressive.

If you are going to load cast bullets, you will want a die set something like the RCBS Cowboy dies... the case flare is designed a bit different to accommodate cast bullets without shaving lead or overly working the case mouth. I don't get a lot of case stretch with the .45-70, so I don't think you will be doing a lot of trimming, and you should be able to seat and crimp in the same station without problems... unless you just want to. I have a .45 taper crimp die I use in lieu of the roll crimp in the seat die, although you could easily use another .45-70 die to roll crimp in a separate step.

I use the Hornady custom dies incase i want to use the lever evolution cases and bullets and just crimp in a separate step with the seating die on my LCT. I don't use the index rod unless its for handgun. I size, flare, seat and set aside and then turn the die inwards until the mark i had on the turret place and the die align and crimp all of them.

You can run straight cast bullets up to about 1700fps without getting into too much trouble; I admit, I don't have any experience with coated bullets, I'm more of a gas check guy. The key to cast is proper bullet size... typically .001" over bore diameter, but you would have to slug your barrel to see what the true bore size is. If all you are doing is plinking around, cast is perfect.

I use Hornady OneShot case lube... lay the cases on a cookie sheet, spray them down with lube, let them set for a few minutes (that's important, just ask me!) and then size them up. Some don't bother to tumble the lube off, others wipe it off by hand, I'm too anal about it and have to tumble them for 20 minutes or so to get it all off.

I've got a 1895 LTD I'm loading for now, it's been many years since I've loaded for the big boomer, and I never before loaded cast in the .45-70, so I'm learning a bit, now, meself. I've found faster powders... even as fast as 2400! can be used. You won't get hunting-velocity loads, but you will get soft-shooting, fun-to-shoot loads out of them. I've kind of settled in the middle... with IMR's 4227, 4198, and 3031; I've gone as slow as IMR's 4895 and 4064, but I would reserve those for jacketed loads at hunting velocities.

The first step would be to slug your bore ahead of the chamber.
Plan on a cast bullet about .002 larger.

1. I would recommend an after market expander .001 or .002 smaller than the bullets you will use. These expanders are sold by NOE, Track of the Wolf and Buffalo Arms. You may have to buy an additional die body for the expander.
2. The best crimp die is the Lee Factory Crimp die.
3. The best seater is the RCBS COWBOY. The Cowboy seater is about .002 larger inside to permit the use of oversize cast bullets. If you like expensive micrometer seaters Redding makes a dandy if the interior is large enough for your cast bullets.
4. The best sizer is up for debate. I guess that this would be the open top RCBS COWBOY sizer or the Lyman. I use an RCBS die made in the 1980s because it sizes the case less. My 1972 RCBS sizer sized the cases way too much.
The best shell holders are hard to find. They are 1" diameter and were made by RCBS in the 1960s and 1970s.
I shoot 45-70s a lot but my rifles are single shots.
The single shots do not require a crimp and I can use a wider variety of longer, heavier and pointed bullets.

To make shooting more enjoyable restrict velocities too 1100 to 1300 fps.
Good propellants range from 2400 to 4198. The extra velocity and recoil is not needed. You can't make a 45-70 shoot flat and a cast bullet will penetrate any living target. Plus the 1100 to 1300 fps produces excellent accuracy. Both 5744 and 4227 are good powders for this round.

The standard Lee 3 die set plus a lee factory crimp die work just fine for cast bullets in 45-70. The 45-70 is not a straightwall case, it is a tapered case which is why you can’t get carbide dies for it.

To make it easy I’ve found you don’t need to run the cases all the way into the die. I have my sizing die screwed up in the press a couple turnes. Because there is no shoulder you need only size them enough to hold a bullet again. I dry tumble mine and lube them in an ice cream pail with Hornady one shot and do not wipe the lube off afterward. I load them in a Lee Classic Turret.

I have only ever shot Lazercast .459” 350 grain bullets and the accuracy in my guide gun is superb and no leading. I load 19 grains of trailboss with a magnum primer which gives 1250 FPS. Recoil is like a shotgun with trap loads. Everyone loves to shoot it.

Don’t make it complicated, it’s not. Just like loading a giant 38 special.

Unless your shooting it a bunch, someguy2800 has it pegged. Enjoy your guide gun. I bought mine in 2003 just after I got back from the war. While gone I dreamed of buying a Marlin 1895G and a bicycle. Since you don't spend a lot of money eating MRE's, I got both. My 1895G likes lead and Copper bullets. I mostly shoot about 300 grains of either. Go to powders have included most mentioned above, but I have mostly settled on AA5744. I keep most loads in the 1200 FPS range. I shoot factory Hornady ammo for hunting. It isn't hard to reload. Had to get the optional jaws for the Co-AX and use a Lee shell holder for my BPM Hand Press. When loading just a few the BPM works wonders. A while ago I purchased 500 starline empties. Brass life has been excellent. I found trimming not a problem. Lubing not an issue with my home made stuff. RCBS dies work well for me. I did experiment with some pistol powders with good luck. But experiment at your own risk. Nothing I said here is new. Just confirmation of what others have already added.

Enjoy your new rifle!

Ireload2 said:

2. The best crimp die is the Lee Factory Crimp die.

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Why do you say that? I've not had much luck with the ones I have, I've had much better luck with a taper crimp die or, if I have too, the roller.

On the rare occasions I load a jacketed bullet in the 45-70 I use IMR3031. I have some 300gr Silvertips I bought on clearance I like for hunting.

I load mostly 405gr Cast and Coated Cast bullets. I used a lot of 4198 in the past but the last few years it's been nothing but AA5744 for me. It's been very accurate in several different rifles including a Marlin Levergun.

For bottle neck rifle cases I use Imperial Sizing Wax but One Shot spray lube seems to work well with the 45-70.

The Lee factory crimp die for rifle rounds does not depend on uniform case length for a good crimp.
I am basing that on use on 8X57 ammo in an autoloader.
I have also used the Lee FCD for .35 Rem ammo used in 2 tube magazine rifles.
Also for .30-30 and .375 Win in Marlin 336 rifles.
I use the Lee rifle type FCD to remove the bell or flare of cast bullet loads in .38-55, .40-65 and .45-70 when used in single shots. The .40-65 was s limited production die.

For the most part I do not bother to crimp anything else but I always crimp ammo used in autoloaders and tube magazines.

Charlie98 said:

Why do you say that? I've not had much luck with the ones I have, I've had much better luck with a taper crimp die or, if I have too, the roller.

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Slugging a bore is really easy, just need an egg shaped fishing sinker and an oak dowel. That said I have never slugged my 45-70 and don't intend to. 98% chance you will be just fine with a .459" boolit. 2400 is a popular reduced load for 45-70 lever rifles. I believe Lyman used to have data published for it but its not in there books anymore. 5744 and any large rifle primer should do just fine. You don't need a coated bullet but won't hurt anything if you want to go that route. SNS casting and Missouri Bullet Company have them.

If you are looking at commercial cast (and that's what I shoot) you should start at .459", like someguy suggests. If accuracy suffers or you get a lot of leading, then you would probably have to slug the barrel and see what's up. With that short of barrel, I think the 350grn cast and something like IMR4198 or AA5744 would probably be a good start. 2400 and IMR4227 are for lower velocity loads (which aren't a bad thing I would save the IMR3031 for the jacketed bullets, or cast at higher velocities... say 1800fps or higher... or if you can't get the velocities you want with the faster powders.

Data for 2400, et al, will be in either 'Trapdoor' data, or specifically in 'reduced' loads for the .45-70... most manuals have 2, 3 or 4 different sets of data to cover the range of rifles .45-70 is available in. Data for such is also available online at places like Hodgdon's website.

When using a coated bullet the cast hardness is less important than with normal cast bullets.
Try these http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=228&category=6 if you want a lighter bullet than the more common 405gr bullets.

No, no reason at all not to use AA5744. Like I said above, it's all I use now in the 45-70.

I use either CCI or Winchester primers in all my rifle cartridges. They have worked very well for me.

The 45-70 cartridge is almost as much fun to reload as it is to shoot. I use a little Hornady One Shot or lanolin/alcohol and leave it on.
Most of my loads have used my own cast and coated 405 grain bullets. I just got some gas checked 350 grain from Bear Tooth but haven't tried them yet.
For powder I've used Unique, 2400, AA5744, IMR4198, 4064, 4166, 8208 and Varget. All of them work well, 4064 has given the best accuracy.

Congrats to the new toy! I am sure you'll love the 45/70. It offers you a wide range of loads from cowboy action to the shoulder dislocating loads if desired. I use standard RCBS dies and .459, 405 gr hard cast bullets. I'm mostly using Varget for the heavier loads and Unique for low recoil cowboy action/plinking ones. You'll find plenty of published load data at hodgdon.com.

WrongHanded said:

But unlike my pistol dies, it seems there are no carbide sets available for this cartridge which means I'm going to have to lube the cases?

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If you want a carbide sizing die (will probably still need to use lube), CH/4D will make you such a die w/ Titanium Nitride insert. It's pricey and will take while, but do-able.

someguy2800 said:

I have only ever shot Lazercast .459” 350 grain bullets and the accuracy in my guide gun is superb and no leading. I load 19 grains of trailboss with a magnum primer which gives 1250 FPS. Recoil is like a shotgun with trap loads. Everyone loves to shoot it.

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Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I've been loading with H4198 and H322 in my Contender pistol, and it's a bit of a handful.

A mild load of Trailboss sounds almost pleasant.

GarrettJ said:

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I've been loading with H4198 and H322 in my Contender pistol, and it's a bit of a handful.

A mild load of Trailboss sounds almost pleasant.

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I bet it would be. Powder charge weight is a big part of what makes up recoil so the smallest powder charge you can use for a given velocity will have the lowest recoil.

Be advised I believe you are supposed to stick with trapdoor loads in contenders so that load may be a bit much in a contender. When I worked up to that load in my marlin the velocity did not really increase much from 15 to 19 grains, but the accuracy did increase slightly so I went with it. I think 15 was 1200 fps and 19 was 1250. 16 grains should be a safe and pleasant contender load according to hodgdon. Try it and let us know.

Those powders would be a bit much in a Contender.
Just be sure you do not double charge your Contender if you use a faster burning powder.
Check the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for some really light loads.

Be very careful with GMDR data. It is easy to double charge.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

GarrettJ said:

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I've been loading with H4198 and H322 in my Contender pistol, and it's a bit of a handful.

A mild load of Trailboss sounds almost pleasant.

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As was already mentioned, the 45-70 has a mild taper. It's easy to load. I have a setup for my Lee Classic Turret too, works great. You will especially like the Lee Powder Through Expander. The Lee funnel fits the powder through expander so you can easily drop powder charges. I outfitted mine with the Lee Auto Drum, that works great too. I prefer a Taper Crimp over a roll crimp and went with the Redding Taper Crimp Die.

The Lyman E-Zee Trim is a step up from the Lee Cartridge Length Gage trimmer. Hand trimming is pretty easy and the Lyman system has a large handle so your hands don't tend to cramp when using it. I like Imperial Die Sizing Wax as a lube. There is nothing better and a small tin lasts for thousands of cases. It's marketed by Redding. Lyman and RCBS also make a 50 BMG deburring tool that works great with the 45-70, again, tends to avoid hand cramps.

You may end up casting your own bullets. I use the Lee 340 grain mold along with the Lee Pro 4-30 lead pot. I've made/shot many of these bullets and have been extremely pleased with the accuracy.

Ireload2 said:

Those powders would be a bit much in a Contender.

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I'm aware of the frame stretching issue with Contenders and the .45-70, so I've been keeping close to the starting loads. My Sierra and Hornady books even have dedicated handgun loads listed, with Hornady noting they got best results from H322.

I also get a kick out of the comments in the Hornady book about "severe recoil and wear and tear on both the shooter and the firearm..." (and I'll wholeheartedly agree with their assessment).

The other thing I find interesting is in the Sierra book. The description in the pistol section states "Loads reduced below these are not recommended". But when I turn to the Trapdoor loads in the same book, every powder listed has a lower starting point than the "do not reduce below" pistol loads.

someguy2800 said:

Powder charge weight is a big part of what makes up recoil so the smallest powder charge you can use for a given velocity will have the lowest recoil.

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I've found that to be true as well.

Another interesting side note - I wanted to see how much velocity gain one gets in a pistol with that huge case vs a more conventional pistol cartridge.

So I loaded some 300 gr. bullets in .45 Colt (.452" XTP) with a near-max load of some slow pistol powder. Then I loaded some 300 gr. JHP (.458") in the .45-70 about as warm as I cared to run them, and I shot them all over the chronograph through a pair of Contenders.

As previously noted, the .45-70 has a 14" barrel. The .45 Colt has a 16" barrel, but only 14" of rifling because of the choke tube for running .410 through it. So they're pretty much the same effective length.

I was getting around 200 fps more velocity from the big cartridge, but recoil was much more pronounced. And there's not much a 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps can do that one at 1300 fps wont do almost as well.

And if going to powder puff Trailboss loads, it makes me wonder why I really need the big boomer.

Of course "because I can" has always been a good enough reason. So I'll probably keep that barrel around anyway.

GarrettJ said:

I've found that to be true as well.

Another interesting side note - I wanted to see how much velocity gain one gets in a pistol with that huge case vs a more conventional pistol cartridge.

So I loaded some 300 gr. bullets in .45 Colt (.452" XTP) with a near-max load of some slow pistol powder. Then I loaded some 300 gr. JHP (.458") in the .45-70 about as warm as I cared to run them, and I shot them all over the chronograph through a pair of Contenders.

As previously noted, the .45-70 has a 14" barrel. The .45 Colt has a 16" barrel, but only 14" of rifling because of the choke tube for running .410 through it. So they're pretty much the same effective length.

I was getting around 200 fps more velocity from the big cartridge, but recoil was much more pronounced. And there's not much a 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps can do that one at 1300 fps wont do almost as well.

And if going to powder puff Trailboss loads, it makes me wonder why I really need the big boomer.

Of course "because I can" has always been a good enough reason. So I'll probably keep that barrel around anyway.

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That’s a real nice pair of contenders you have there. I have a 13” 357 maximum and I have another frame and carbine stock waiting for a barrel. Father in law has 22lr and 30 Herrett pistols. I’m looking to add a 44 mag 10” barrel for mine too.