New İnvented Handgun
- Thread starter Erhan
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bullseye308
Member
Very interesting concept and looks like it would be pretty easy to mass produce.
1KPerDay
Member
That's cool! I like new designs. I'd focus on streamlining the trigger guard and adding more ergonomic looking grips for your next prototype. Also finish the magazine evenly. Also a firing demonstration would be great. Your English is excellent.
1KPerDay
Member
Looked like 9mm to me. Some other pistols have used the "grooved chamber" to help retard opening and allow fixed barreled 9mms... to the OP, how does your design mitigate the problems they encountered?
Thats a pretty cool design. The recoil spring above the barrel makes for a really low bore axis which should minimize muzzle flip. The plastic cover on the rear of the upper did not appear to be firmly attached and seemed kind of flimsy but that could be addressed as well as the lack of sights
tark
Member
That is incredible. And your English is just fine. You have a future as a firearms designer, my friend, from what I have seen. I'm guessing it is a .32 ACP. I saw many good features, such as simplicity, ease of disassembly and the axis of the bore is low. I'm guessing recoil is quite manageable. Your design looks to be sound and I didn't see a whole lot of parts. Ease in manufacturing springs to mind.
Any chance we can get a shooting video?
Any chance we can get a shooting video?
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Good Ol' Boy
Member
Folks, he says 9mm in the vid.
Very cool design. Pretty that thing up and you'll have something.
Very cool design. Pretty that thing up and you'll have something.
bannockburn
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Very interesting and innovative design! With the over the barrel recoil springs it kind of reminds me of a Browning Model 1900. A lot of neat features on this gun; especially the slide assembly though I would like to see the cover shroud a little more firmly attached to the frame. All in all a very promising design and I look forward to seeing what future developments will be made to it.
zaitcev
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Traditionally, a lever-delayed blowback accelerates a mass (just like any other delayed blowback). Acting against a spring (in this case mainspring) is not going to be sufficient in case of the realistic forces even for a 9mm cartridge, I'm afraid, and here's why.
The maximum force is about 3500 lb-f. Even if we assume half of it as the medan, it's 16000 Newtons over some 0.0007 seconds. I cannot estimate how much the energy is going to be transferred without knowing the geometry of the hammer, its mass, and the mainspring rate, but it is going to be considerable, perhaps a few J. You'll note right away that a bullet carries way more than that (~480 J) because the equal force acts upon it along a much longer barrel. If you let the length of forced bolt travel to be too great, you'll get that much on your bolt and then nothing is going to keep it on the gun.
The experience with the ring retardation on guns like Seecamp shows that the ring chamber effect is relatively small and its relative effectiveness degrades with an increase in the caliber. At 9mm pressures the casing is going to form easily and then flow or rip. The best results of ring retardation are in .32 ACP and lower.
One last thing: a bolt that comes out at the back is unsafe, even if designed retardation is sufficient. That is because manufacturing can be imperfect, or not account for metal fatigue enough, and any number of things. First Colt automatics had slide coming off to the rear (it's true!). And in 1905 one of them flew off and injured the shooter at the trials. John Browning then fixed the problem by changing the disassembly procedure to one we're familiar with today. Same thing was known to happen to Chinese clones of Broomhandle C-96. I really think it's not acceptable to deploy a design with such feature in 2018 (unless it's a .22). And yes, I realize that Heizer PKO45 is like that, and I think it's not a great design.
Sorry if I sound too critical. I think that delayed blowback is not used enough in handguns. If you want to see how a lever-delayed blowback gun operates, have a look at Hogue Avenger. Also, Korth PRS, although it is roller-delayed. Hopefully, the design can be improved, if only work continues.
The maximum force is about 3500 lb-f. Even if we assume half of it as the medan, it's 16000 Newtons over some 0.0007 seconds. I cannot estimate how much the energy is going to be transferred without knowing the geometry of the hammer, its mass, and the mainspring rate, but it is going to be considerable, perhaps a few J. You'll note right away that a bullet carries way more than that (~480 J) because the equal force acts upon it along a much longer barrel. If you let the length of forced bolt travel to be too great, you'll get that much on your bolt and then nothing is going to keep it on the gun.
The experience with the ring retardation on guns like Seecamp shows that the ring chamber effect is relatively small and its relative effectiveness degrades with an increase in the caliber. At 9mm pressures the casing is going to form easily and then flow or rip. The best results of ring retardation are in .32 ACP and lower.
One last thing: a bolt that comes out at the back is unsafe, even if designed retardation is sufficient. That is because manufacturing can be imperfect, or not account for metal fatigue enough, and any number of things. First Colt automatics had slide coming off to the rear (it's true!). And in 1905 one of them flew off and injured the shooter at the trials. John Browning then fixed the problem by changing the disassembly procedure to one we're familiar with today. Same thing was known to happen to Chinese clones of Broomhandle C-96. I really think it's not acceptable to deploy a design with such feature in 2018 (unless it's a .22). And yes, I realize that Heizer PKO45 is like that, and I think it's not a great design.
Sorry if I sound too critical. I think that delayed blowback is not used enough in handguns. If you want to see how a lever-delayed blowback gun operates, have a look at Hogue Avenger. Also, Korth PRS, although it is roller-delayed. Hopefully, the design can be improved, if only work continues.
entropy
Member
Zaitcev beat me to it; This gun would never be successful in anything more than .32 ACP. . I realize it's a mock-up, but rule #1 when trying to sell a gun design is make it look good.
Redesign it to fire .380 ACP, get it on a diet down to 15 oz or so, and you might be onto something....
Redesign it to fire .380 ACP, get it on a diet down to 15 oz or so, and you might be onto something....
Vern Humphrey
Member
Remember also, Americans are hand loaders -- anything that damages the brass will be looked on as undesirable.
R_P_K
Member
Interesting. I do need to add that your English is better than 70% of the people I encounter while working with the public. Sad, I know. Good luck
9*19 mm....
You are right.The cover normally have a pin,wich is removeable with a stick only..For the video i dont used it...But in the next version,i want lock the cover with the keypiece ..So i dont need a stick for removing..And there are no sights..thats right,too...This is a Prototype..Just to show the mechanical part...Thanks
İ dont know much about handloading and the advantage of that... The Case is not useable again,thats right...But i think,every case will expand a little bit in the chamber,will have signs from the extractor and ejector,and maybe little damage from smashing to hard surfaces.....İ wouldnt take the risk and reload....For Rifles its ok,shootguns ok...of course that is my opinion...Thanks
The Dust cover is normally fixed with a pin,wich is removable with a stick...For video it dont attach it...But i dont like the idea to use any tool for disassembling..İ have another solution in my mind for that..Thank you...
The Recoil spring dont affect to much on blowback.Because of the enourmos speed of detonation,the spring will use contact with the slide and so the force will escape,for a short time...Thats why,trying to control blowback with springs is not very useful...İf the spring is to strong,it will destroy the frame in time ,due a very hard backsmashing slider on the frame,with every shot....Ok,now.The slide mass,wich is necessary to keep a 9*19 cartridge in the chamber,with 4 inç barrel, during firing is about 300-350 gram..My slider weight is150 gram.That means i need 200 gram mass..My hammer weight is about 17 gram..But it act like a crank,because of the connection point to the slider,with a 1/3 ratio...that means,even if the Hammer is stationary,it gives me a force of 50 gram..So,know we have to know the speed of the Hammer during ignition and of course the loss for ignition..At the end ,i know that the force is enough keep the slider in position,because of praxis....And i know for higher caliber,like 45 i need to adjust the Mass of the Hammer...
Ring chamber effect is not small...İ know,from experience,if you mill the grooves a litlle to deep,the case will stuck in the chamber,and the slide will stay in position..No Recoil...
The safety of the bolt is the point i agree with you....if there will be an imperfection in material or manifacturing,that can cause to injury..Of course this can happen to any gun,but in my design it seems that the risk is a little higher...But it isnt a problem whitout a solution..İ have something for that on my mind,but even this Prototype is version 12!!..İ work alone and its Handmade with very primitive Machines...So it takes really very much effort,time,money to solve all these problems...Thank you very much
bannockburn
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Erhan
Prototype #12...I admire your engineering perseverance! Keep up the good work and please keep us updated with your design progress.
Prototype #12...I admire your engineering perseverance! Keep up the good work and please keep us updated with your design progress.
Its a 9*19mm...and shooting videos??.i will work on it...Thanks
Vern Humphrey
Member
Americans reload ALL calibers. In fact "progressive" reloaders, machines which reload one cartridge with one pull of the handle are quite popular. Personally, I reload .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and .45 Colt in quantity (1000+ rounds at a session.)
farm23
Member
I like new designs and often purchase an item just because it is different. I reload and would not be inclined to buy a gun that damages the shell case. Keep up the design and good luck.
mgmorden
Member
Looks neat. Though the "standard" Browning tilting design is tried and true I always like seeing something a little bit different. If this was cleaned up into a finished product and sold at a reasonable price I'd likely buy one.
I will say though that the grooved chamber that puts a groove on the brass is a pretty big turn off. I reload/handload for all of my guns (as do a large volume of shooting out of their own funds) so damaging the brass would make it a more costly gun to shoot.
I will say though that the grooved chamber that puts a groove on the brass is a pretty big turn off. I reload/handload for all of my guns (as do a large volume of shooting out of their own funds) so damaging the brass would make it a more costly gun to shoot.
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