Remington Bid Rejected

Fyi: The Navaho planned to stop Remington from producing AR-15 style rifles, and shift to a police/military clientele.
It would have killed Remington .... already struggling economically, and a customer base disaffected by entries like the R51 debacle.
It is a good thing this was trashed!

Fully agree.
It would have finished Remington off entirely.
Denis

Hmmm.

Does anyone think Remington is going is going to get out of C11 while being owned by a hedge fund? That's the reason they're in the financial straits they are now.

If the tribe were to buy a company they wouldn't just strip the profits and leave it on life support. A lot of the profit would go back into the community and not a few hedge fund managers pockets.

Personally, I think Remington needs to be broken up into 2 groups, the ammo side and the gun side. If they just pursue making guns for only LEO/military, ala Colt, I suspect they wouldn't be in business too long.

I would rather see Remington go under than to be owned by the Navajo. Their plans for the business would have been a worse fate than where they currently are.

I can’t argue that ditching the ar15 is worth considering. It’s a flooded market with too many makers and prices are being shoved lower and lower just to stay competitive. It’s gotta be an extremely thin profit margin by now. Focusing on sporting arms kinda seems like a bad plan too though as hunting and shooting is constantly under attack and will continue to be until the rights are finally stripped in a generation or three. Navajo or not, somebody needs to take Remington, Marlin, and Savage, keep the best of the bunch and scrap the crap.

herrwalther said:

I would rather see Remington go under than to be owned by the Navajo. Their plans for the business would have been a worse fate than where they currently are.

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I suspect that someone thinks they can get more elsewhere or they would have sold it.

I think there are plenty of companies in the gun business and the rest of the industry would be quite happy to see the remington gun business go away.

I think the tribe might be able to make the government only business model work just because of the numerous minority set asides, but I think the dubious idea of Indians making gun parts in their backyards would fail miserably. The need for precision and high quality precludes the very small scale production that would entail.

In any case, what guns does Remington have that most governmental entities really want?

People say they're hell but my new police 870 is a gem of a gun I do not believe the older ones are any better at least regarding the police guns. Smoother maybe but that's because the old ones are broken in duh.

It could not possibly have survived under the stated direction the Tribe was planning.

Added to everything else, you'd have people with no experience in the industry making major changes in areas they knew nothing about.
At the very least, Cerberus was not directly involved in the details of production & management to the degree the Tribe was indicating they'd be.
Denis

ilbob said:

In any case, what guns does Remington have that most governmental entities really want?

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What guns do they offer that anybody really wants? The 700 used to be the flagship but it has been hobbled by trigger problem publicity and prices have dropped. The 1100 used to be a great gun for clay games, and the Vmax has kinda fell into that category but it’s not as strongly represented. The 870 is still a tank, but it’s a $300 shotgun in a sea of decent $200 shotguns. R15 is just another AR. The pistols are nothing special. The rimfires are cheap and junky but they work so there is a bit of a positive.

So...rifles, rimfire is blah. Centerfire falls short to several others.
Then shotguns...pumps are great but at a 50% premium over similar guns. Autos are tied with many others.
And pistols...poly frame guns are troublesome and the 1911 market is flooded. Who really wants a 7 shot heavy gun in a sea of 18 shot lightweight guns...especially when your not a premium maker.

They need to be innovating somehow. And they need to find a way to get something at the top of the heap.

The Navajo plan was to make separate product lines: traditional hunting rifles and shotguns for the civilian market, and military-style for the military and police market. The work to be done on the reservation sounded like final assembly, fit and finish of parts manufactured elsewhere.

The reason in the article for removing the AR15 from the civilian market was the bad image from high profile mass shootings.
Given that the most recent high profile shooting (Santa Fe, Texas, second deadliest high school shooting) was with a Remington 870 pump shotgun, demonizing and banning gun models if they are misused is senseless. Given some of the these mass shooters spend months or weeks planning, stopping production of specific models will still leave substitutes on the legal and illegal markets.

You forgot the Remington R1 that is just another 1911... and doesn't seem to be too highly thought of.
And don't forget the R51 pistol that was such a huge failure in its initial release that they were all recalled. They almost shot themselves in the foot TWICE with the R51... but it jammed before they got the second shot off.

I have two nice 700 target riffles... that I have been meaning to replace the triggers before I start using them again. I never cared for my 870 that much... but that is just because pump action shot guns don't agree with me... nothing bad about the 870 itself. I have a gen 2 R51 that jams. The 760 pump action rifle in 30-06 that was my fathers hunting gun is still going strong.

Remington definitely needs a strong leader to clean house if they are going to survive! They will probably be bought by some investment firm, have all there assets sold off and then have the Remington name used to market all sorts of junk like so many other American manufactures with famous names.

MikeInOr said:

You forgot the Remington R1 that is just another 1911... and doesn't seem to be too highly thought of.
And don't forget the R51 pistol that was such a huge failure in its initial release that they were all recalled. They almost shot themselves in the foot TWICE with the R51... but it jammed before they got the second shot off........

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The R1 has received some decent reviews here .... I have one, and it works well -- and the slide is butter smooth in action. True, they're not "la creme de la creme," but they function well.
Yes, the R51 intro was a fiasco. I had one. The weapon had a short-chamber, the inside looked like it had been milled out by a drunk gorilla with a broken chisel. I turned it in for their 2.0 version, which corrected those problems.
They do need to get their quality control up to.... well, so it actually exists, atleast ......

I’m against anyone owning it that gets special treatment from the government.

Remington needs to go back to their roots and quit playing the cheapo bolt gun market.

Nix the cheap bolt gun line. Offer the basic 700’s and a fancy version with a nice stock and trigger in it. A solid $400 rifle and a $800 or so version to play with stuff like tikka. (I realize they pretty much do that now, but there’s too many variations all people see is the cheapos.)

Promote the 870 wing masters, best pump shotgun ever made. IMO the regular 870 is worth the money over its market competitors.

Find a way to shed pounds off the Versamax to play with benelli and beretta.

They need a quality polymer pistol line.

Update the AR line up. A $500 lower end one and a $800 higher end gun. (Like what’s ruger has done with theirs) they can get a $50 premium for an AR that says Remington on it over the brands that are not know outside the AR world, much like S&W and ruger do. Their current offering is way over priced.

Remington ammo is very good.

I hate to see them dying off. It just seems like they have doubled down on selling floppy bolt bolt action rifles. They need to do something to the 700 to put it back in the spotlight. Timney trigger would be a start.

I think that Remington would go under with the Nation buying the company. You can't run a gun company is the "anti gun" idea of what a responsible gun company is. Its too anti-profit. Smart guns, no AR's, and seemingly no pistols either.

They need innovation. Like a special Remington 700 to compete with the GSR. Or late to the game with a precision rifle. What about a Remington Revolver?

CoalTrain49 asked:
Does anyone think Remington is going is going to get out of C11 while being owned by a hedge fund?

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Well, Remington DID emerge from Bankruptcy in May 2018. Also, the current owners; mostly former Remington creditors, are banks and conventional mutual funds, not hedge funds.

In my opinion, the Navajo plan had some significant weaknesses. The idea of dropping the AR-15 product line whose margins have been under pressure - a trend likely to continue for the foreseeable future - seems prudent enough. The idea of splitting the company into a military & police unit and a separate consumer unit seems ill-conceived as it increases costs without creating a meaningful difference inside the company. For that reason, I was glad to see management recommend against the offer.

But, the Navajo are right on one thing; the current Remington management team, which includes many of the people that got Remington in the mess they are currently in and clearly have no idea how to turn things around should be replaced.

Several people at the top HAVE been replaced.
Currently, support for "Better", not "Cheaper" has been positive & is trickling down.
Getting Cerberus gone was a major improvement.
The creditors who now own the umbrella are not trying to squeeze every last penny out of Remington.
Denis

herrwalther said:

I would rather see Remington go under than to be owned by the Navajo. Their plans for the business would have been a worse fate than where they currently are.

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Worse for Remington and worse for everyone that supports the second amendment.

WestKentucky said:

What guns do they offer that anybody really wants? The 700 used to be the flagship but it has been hobbled by trigger problem publicity and prices have dropped. The 1100 used to be a great gun for clay games, and the Vmax has kinda fell into that category but it’s not as strongly represented. The 870 is still a tank, but it’s a $300 shotgun in a sea of decent $200 shotguns. R15 is just another AR. The pistols are nothing special. The rimfires are cheap and junky but they work so there is a bit of a positive.

So...rifles, rimfire is blah. Centerfire falls short to several others.
Then shotguns...pumps are great but at a 50% premium over similar guns. Autos are tied with many others.
And pistols...poly frame guns are troublesome and the 1911 market is flooded. Who really wants a 7 shot heavy gun in a sea of 18 shot lightweight guns...especially when your not a premium maker.

They need to be innovating somehow. And they need to find a way to get something at the top of the heap.

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Not to mention the R51 problems when they rolled out.

rskent said:

Worse for Remington and worse for everyone that supports the second amendment.

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Not really. It is just another poorly run business. Poorly run businesses are supposed to go under.

I don’t know of a current Remington product that is worth my money. I don’t know anyone who knows anything about guns that would purposely buy anything but an 870, but then they’d buy used because who has $400-500 for a NIB basic pump in a flooded market where I can buy a great used 870 for $250-300?

I don’t care who buys them; they’ll die soon enough because they suck. I wish them a quick demise.

They don’t make a Second Amendment item that I can’t get a better version of for the same or less money elsewhere.

ilbob said:

Not really. It is just another poorly run business. Poorly run businesses are supposed to go under.

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I meant the Navajo plan. Smart gun tech and so forth. We don’t need a gun company pushing anti-tech products.

One of the guys at our police league Monday was shooting an R51. He liked the concept but thought, as many, that it was cheaply done. He had gotten in to talk to one of the top excecs at the Huntsville facility - hey, when the FBI calls, you listen - and gave him a piece of his mind.

Anecdote 2: One of the other LE's son had gotten a job at Remington/Huntsville. With no prior experience in any form of mechanical work, he was assembling R1 1911oids for sale after a week's "training." So much for the "fitting" required in the gunbuilding business.