Remington does it again... Bankruptcy No 2.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by mcb, Jun 26, 2020.

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  1. tubeshooter

    tubeshooter Member

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    I hope you are right and the Marlin brand and products get the quality treatment they deserve.

    I went ahead and got a Remlin 1895. It's good that things worked out the way they did - but for all we know Marlin could have ended up doing something like the Walther/Umarex thing (however unlikely). And even now, with a "good" buyer on deck, there are no guarantees. I figured that you can always get whatever Marlin goes on to be down the road if you want, but it might be harder to do things the other way around.
     
  2. 23tony

    23tony Member

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    I was wondering what exactly this would mean, but then some of you were mentioning PSA - so is PSA also owned by JJE? I'm not completely clear here.
     
  3. MidRoad
    • Contributing Member

    MidRoad Contributing Member

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    Yea kinda thinking the same thing. Im a big ruger fan, so am biased. But its probably going to be a few years before they get their ducks in a row between engineers, machinery, relocations and training folks. Look how long it took Remington to get their marlins to come out functional (6-7 years?). Im sure ruger will get it together faster, but it stil is going to have hiccups before they get it right. Even with the hiccups, atleast rugers customer service is top notch.
     
  4. George P

    George P Member

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    I could - Savage, a company that has a history with lever guns; hopefully Ruger won't try to screw them up with castings like they did their shotgun lines.
     
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  5. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Yes, JJE owns PSA Defense, Palmetto State Armory and Lead Star Arms among other firms. You can check out the list here:

    https://jjech.com/portfolio-companies/
     
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  6. BobABQ

    BobABQ Member

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    With Marlin being bought by Ruger I guess this is the end of Marlin model 60 and 795 semiauto .22s. Probably the end of their .22 bolt action line for rifles since they compete with established Ruger products.
     
  7. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I don't think so... heres why

    Ruger bought products; not customers.

    They need products to attract customers that pay for their product.

    (Using made up math to illustrate the idea)

    Those products have a really good loyal following.

    If they discontinue those, half of the customers will go to the Ruger product and the other half will choose another product from another brand resulting in ruger loosing 1/2 the potential paying customers that they just paid near full price for the Marlin product lines to sell to them.


    I would expect them to increase the price on those budget 22s.
     
  8. George P

    George P Member

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    I do not understand why folks think some of these new owners will automatically discontinue brands that were competitors but are now under the same corporate parent. Go down the soap aisle in any supermarket and you'll find P&G owns most of the brands competing against each other; gives them MORE market share and more space on the shelf; no reason for Ruger, PSA or others to not do the same.
     
  9. Tallinar

    Tallinar Member

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    I'm gonna sit here and fantasize about H&R Handi Rifle production being spun back up....

    A guy can dream, right?
     
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  10. George P

    George P Member

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    Seems the Roundhill in VA is not the same as the one involved with this deal:

    From another forum:


    CURRENTLY

    Section 2.1 Consideration. The aggregate consideration for the sale and
    transfer to Buyer of the Acquired Assets (the “Purchase Price”) shall be:
    (a) Thirteen Million United States Dollars (US $13,000,000.00) (the “Gross Closing
    Cash Payment”), to be adjusted pursuant to Section 2.2(b), and paid and delivered in accordance
    with Section 3.3(a); and
    (b) assumption of the Assumed Liabilities.
    Section 2.2 Good Faith Deposit.
    (a) Buyer has paid to Seller the amount of Five Million United States
    Dollars (US $5,000,000.00) by wire transfer of immediately-available funds (the “Good
    Faith Deposit”).

    1. Gun Factory
    14 Hoefler Avenue1
    Ilion, NY 13357

    2. Steam Plant Parcel
    Accessible via Commerce Street2
    Ilion, NY 13357

    3. Handgun Barrel Factory
    5900 Highway 321 North
    Lenoir City, TN 37771

    4. Auxiliary Property
    6035 Hwy 321
    Lenoir City, TN 37771

    Ilion Investment Reserve.

    On or prior to Closing, Buyer shall
    have deposited no less than Two Million Dollars (US$2,000,000) (the “Reserve
    Amount”) into a segregated reserve account, which Reserve Amount shall be used only
    Case 20-81688-CRJ11 Doc 821-3 Filed 09/27/20 Entered 09/27/20 08:34:20 Desc
    Exhibit Ex. C - Roundhill Group LLC Page 33 of 121
    33

    to fund either (a) capital improvements and modernization costs of the Ilion, New York
    facility or (b) payment of salaries, wages, benefits, and the employer portion of payroll
    taxes in respect of such obligations and benefits for employees located at the Ilion, New
    York facility.

    Transferred Employees.
    Within seventy-five (75) days after entry
    of the Sale Order, Buyer shall offer employment to at least two hundred (200) union Employees related to Debtors' non-Marlin-related firearms business at the Ilion facility.

    Buyer:
    Attention: Scott Soura
    Email: [email protected]
    888 SE 3 Avenue, Suite 500
    Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316


    Quote:
    Business company ROUNDHILL GROUP, LLC is a legal entity registered under the law of State Nevada. Company is located in the register with the Company number LLC2385-2002 and with the national number of State Nevada NV20021021867. This legal entity was firstly registered on 4th March 2002 under the legal form of Domestic Limited-Liability Company. Its registered agent is STATE AGENT AND TRANSFER SYNDICATE, INC. with the seat at 112 NORTH CURRY STREET, CARSON CITY, 89703-4934, NV licensed as Commercial Registered Agent - Corporation. Business activities of this company are managed by Managers. Current company’s status is Permanently Revoked. Company has expired at 4th March 2502.
    Company information
    Company name ROUNDHILL GROUP, LLC
    Status Permanently Revoked
    Company number LLC2385-2002
    NV Business ID NV20021021867
    Company type Domestic Limited-Liability Company
    Home state NV
    Managed By Managers
    Incorporation Date 4th March 2002
    Expiration Date 4th March 2502
    List of Officers Due 31st March 2008
    Registered Agent
    Name STATE AGENT AND TRANSFER SYNDICATE, INC.
    Address 112 NORTH CURRY STREET
    City CARSON CITY
    State NV
    Zip 89703-4934
    Mailing State NV
    Agent Type Commercial Registered Agent - Corporation
    Jurisdiction NEVADA
    Status Active

    The company ROUNDHILL GROUP, LLC is managed by 2 persons in total. The persons responsible for business activities are SCOTT SOURA with the seat at 112 N CURRY ST, CARSON CITY, 89703-4934, NV as Manager , SCOTT SOURA with the seat at 112 N CURRY ST, CARSON CITY, 89703-4934, NV as Manager .
    Manager
    Name SCOTT SOURA
    Address 112 N CURRY ST, CARSON CITY, 89703-4934, NV
    Manager
    Name SCOTT SOURA
    Address 112 N CURRY ST, CARSON CITY, 89703-4934, NV


    Quote:
    Companies for Scott Soura
    Name Status Incorporated Key People Role
    Sf Charitable Foundation Inactive
    2010
    5
    President
    Mercantile Investment Advisors, Inc. Inactive
    1996
    1
    President
    Ocean Marine Holdings, LLC Inactive
    2011
    1
    Manager
    Roundhill Capital, LLC Inactive
    2011
    1
    Manager
    Roundhill Holdings Two, LLC Inactive
    2004
    1
    Manager
    Mbw Investments, LLC Inactive
    2012
    1
    Manager
    Roundhill Group, LLC Inactive
    2002
    1
    Manager
    Roundhill Holdings, LLC Inactive
    2003
    1
    Manager


    Quote:
    Known Addresses for Scott Soura
    382 NE 191st St Miami, FL 33179
    757 SE 17th St Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316
    1410 SE 17th St Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316
    112 N Curry St Carson City, NV 89703
    6560 Bandini Blvd Los Angeles, CA 90040
    PO Box 29502 Las Vegas, NV 89126
    6600 Katella Ave Cypress, CA 90630
    PO Box 29502 Buffalo, NY 14272
     
  11. jeff-10

    jeff-10 Member

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    A more likely choice for the H&R brand is an economical revolver since PSA is now dipping their toes in the low cost polymer 9mm market. Let's just hope it isn't a top break action.
     
  12. Cannibul

    Cannibul Member

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    $13 million for the non-Marlin business. That's damn near chump change.
     
  13. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Yes, it is very sad. I said in another thread about Remington, In 2015 they had a revenue of over $800 million making a profit of just over $190 million. And yet it all sells at auction last week for ~$160 million (adding everything up). :oops:

    The part of the deal for just Remington (firearms) at only $13 million to a real estate business (Roundhill) seems especially shady as I have seen information that might indicated there is a possible previous connection between associates of Roundhill and the current CEO of Remington. The current CEO of Remington only started last June (2019) and yet bankruptcy documents indicate he receive a 250,000 bonus above his already generous compensation. Bankrupts a 200+ year old company and get a bonus. That way big banks (the owners of Remington) deal with companies they don't like I guess.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  14. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Yes, I know you meant $13 million and not $13 billion. And yes, that's not much.

    People keep saying that the "Roundhill Group, LLC" that bid on the assets is a real estate business. I'd sure like to see some links or other evidence to back that up because I can't find any.

    If you play with the spelling of the name, you CAN find a couple of groups with similar names that ARE real estate investment firms. But this one isn't one of those...

    ETA:
    Here is the link to the court doc. It's almost 1500 pages so have fun. Or just jump to page 38-39 of Exhibit C to find the contact info for THIS Roundhill Group, LLC. (That's about page 660 of 1498 of the total doc.)

    https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/27092020123649821_1231_20202709124853872.pdf
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  15. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Digging:

    https://cases.primeclerk.com/RemingtonOutdoor/Home-DocketInfo

    In docket #870 pdf we see several partners of the correct Roundhill Group LLC listed. One of these people is named Richmond Italia. I cannot prove they are the same person but a quick google search shows the current owner of Gi Sportz is listed as a person of the same name. Ken D'arcy, the current CEO of Remington and board member for Remington Outdoor Company was formerly the CEO of Gi Sportz (google search will confirm this) and though I have not found confirmation in public accessible data I have heard that D'Arcy is still on the board of directors for Gi Sportz. Now the arguably bargain price Roundhill got and the interconnections mentioned above might all be perfectly legal but given the limited public information so far it could also be viewed as a very shady deal by some.

    ETA docket #869 discloses that both Italia and D'Arcy are still board members of Gi Sportz. Again this may all be perfectly legal, and yet it still seems unseemly to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  16. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Sure, I agree with that. It could be viewed as shady, but they AREN'T a real estate investment company... :)

    Again, I don't have any idea of what their plans might be going forward, but I'd be willing to bet that they intend to operate the factories and keep the brand going at some level.
     
  17. Megawatt maker

    Megawatt maker Member

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    They will fire everyone, then rehire minus the union contracts.

    Not to get into all that, but I'm not one to blame every problem a company that clearly was robbed by greedy manament, over and over, on unions. It will be a shame. Remingtons problems were started by management decisions. Lean manufacturing methods, combined with lousy quality controls. Both those fit squarely on manaments heads, not the poor slobs on the line who were told to only spend a certain amount of time on each part and send it down the line...and be danged if it was right or not.

    Just my opinion.
     
  18. Slater

    Slater Member

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    Heck, I'm surprised a Chinese company wasn't one of the bidders.
     
  19. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Nope. They are required by the court agreement to hire at least 200 union workers within 75 days of the close of the sale. But I have no idea how it will all pan out after that.
     
  20. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    I am still at a loss why the 700/870/1100/1187/Versa platforms would not be highly desirable product lines to bid on.
     
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  21. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I agree they are probably not a real estate company, at least not the one goggle brings up when you google "roundhill group LLC" The fact that you can't find any real information on the correct Roundhill Group LLC using the contact information in the Court Docket Documents just adds to the shady factor.
     
  22. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Why buy them when most of those products are long out of any IP protection. If I wanted to start making a Remington 700 I could go to Walmart buy an example reverse engineer it and start making them for sale (following ATF and other business regulations for manufacture and sale of firearms) and there is nothing Remington could do to stop me as long as I did not use any Remington Copyrights/Trademarks. I could start sell the mcb-7001 and it could be an exact copy of the Remington 700 and there is not much they could do to stop me. You can already build a clone of the 700 and never buy a Remington part.

    The same argument could be made for much of Marlin's product line too.
     
  23. Slater

    Slater Member

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    Wall Street Journal is reporting that the bankruptcy plan has been approved by the court.
     
  24. George P

    George P Member

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    Roundhill LLC has a corporate address listed in NV as well and the contact is in Ft. Lauderdale:

    Buyer:
    Attention: Scott Soura
    Email: [email protected]
    888 SE 3 Avenue, Suite 500
    Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316

    His name and Roundhill come up in various searches as a company with a lot of inactive names and addresses, leading me to think it is a shell corporation for the real buyer who wishes to remain anonymous

    Could be Bloomberg for all we know who will shutter the plant to prevent guns from being made (at least I wouldn't put it past him, since he is spending 100 million of his own money in FL to unseat Trump) so speculation is all we have as to who Roundhill actually is and what their real intentions are..........
     
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  25. MAKster

    MAKster Member

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    My guess is Roundhill Group is just a shell company. When Olin sold Winchester firearms the buyer was US Repeating Arms Company. USRAC was actually created by a group of Winchester executives just to buy the company. The same thing is probably happening with Remington. Remington execs are buying the company they ran but the bankruptcy proceedings are erasing all the liabilities.
     
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