roval
Member
i found that my sig 220 has the sight picture that requires you to cover your target with the front sight dot. why do they do that.?
sig sight picture
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1KPerDay
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Some do, some don't. I shot a 220 elite that hit ridiculously low. You can swap front and/or rear sights to get your POI where you like it. What number are your sights?
WrongHanded
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I would assume Sig sets the sights for a ''combat hold" because they think it's the best option. Put the dot on the problem and press. Not great for target shooting, but it seems like the most simple and natural sight picture to use in a (high pressure) self defense situation.
roval
Member
it says mh3 ak on both front and rear. before i read covering the dot with the target here in THR, I couldn't hit the 25 yrd target. it's only the last range session i remembered that thing.
jar
Contributing Member
All of my early Sigs made in Germany were initially "Cover the Dot" sights. That's even true with my little Sig P230. It was the traditional Sig set up IIRC.
roval
Member
they should include that bit of info in their manual. I'm not going to change out the sights unless i want new night sights and if so will order a different rear sight height.
Why would Sig have to tell you their guns shoot POA/POI? As WrongHanded above said, put the front sight on the issue and move the trigger to the rear. Most Sigs are made for fighting not for bullseye shooting. If you are trying to impress the guy/gal in the lane next to you get one with adjustable sights.
roval
Member
geez dont be so defensive for sig. it's just not the normal sight picture. ruger has the sight section on their manual. the soldiers that use them I'm sure have to shoot at longer distances occassionally. just mention how it's set up.
crestoncowboy
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It is in the newer manuals. As well as online on their site. All of my sigs have the same sight picture. None are target models though. It's great for steel shooting. Not great for any precision work
roval
Member
now that i know, its less of an issue. but i thought i wasn't gripping the gun right for me not to hit my gong at 25 yrds.
I am not defensive for SIG. As a range officer I have shot hundreds of customers guns . The vast majority of these guns with fixed sights shoot POA/POI at 30' out of the box. That will vary as the distance gets longer or bullet wt. changes significantly.
Also remember there are different ways people line up the normal three dot sight while aiming.
cougar1717
Member
Sig and HK typically "drive the dot."
One time a friend was shooting his P239 with out of the box factory night sights and POI was significantly low. He asked me to shoot it and I put them right on the X. When he asked me what I did, I explained that I lined up the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight and literally put that on the X. What he was doing was lining up the dots on the F and R sights. The problem was - when you did that, the top of the front sight was below the top of the rear sight! That explained why he was lining up the dots, driving the dot, and still shooting low.
Different bullet weights have an effect on POI also. The P220 is probably sighted to drive the dot for 230gr. Yours may shoot shoot higher to the top of the front sight with, say 200gr or 185gr ammo.
One time a friend was shooting his P239 with out of the box factory night sights and POI was significantly low. He asked me to shoot it and I put them right on the X. When he asked me what I did, I explained that I lined up the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight and literally put that on the X. What he was doing was lining up the dots on the F and R sights. The problem was - when you did that, the top of the front sight was below the top of the rear sight! That explained why he was lining up the dots, driving the dot, and still shooting low.
Different bullet weights have an effect on POI also. The P220 is probably sighted to drive the dot for 230gr. Yours may shoot shoot higher to the top of the front sight with, say 200gr or 185gr ammo.
roval
Member
although i did group better with this 220 i wonder if i would have shot my sig 227 better. maybe it was set up the same way. again an explanation in the manual back then would have been sufficient heads up
we did a straight trade on the 227 and 220 so no big deal.
we did a straight trade on the 227 and 220 so no big deal.
roval
Member
i looked again i think the front is 6 and the rear is an 8. but I will leave it alone.
1KPerDay
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You can try higher numbers to get the poi higher. For both front and rear, higher numbers mean higher POI.
roval
Member
yes , i was looking at the manual again , 3 inches higher for each increment for the rear sight at 25 yrds and 1 inch higher per increment for the front sight but then i have to have a gunsmith replace them. ill just shoot them as is for now.
WrongHanded
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If it's not a personal defense gun, and you decide you want a different POI, you may consider an adjustable rear sight. All my fixed sight autos shoot to different POA, so I'm considering this road for future full sized autos.
1KPerDay
Member
Or you could buy a sight pusher
roval
Member
any decently priced ones? are the sights drop in or is some filing needed?
RA40
Member
The sights I've done will take a bit of sanding/filing on the bottom.
Bought the Wheeler pusher and it has been good.
Bought the Wheeler pusher and it has been good.
Walt Sherrill
Member
340PD said:
Because not all gunmakers suggest using the same sight picture?
(The following paragraph, italicized, was added later.)
And, more importantly, the phrase "POA/POI" is meaningless if you don't know where or HOW to position the sights so that your idea of POA is the same as the folks that designed the gun. IIf you look at the fist set of sight pictures below, and you use image 2 below, the POA is one place, and if you use image 3, it's another.
I've kept copies of all the manuals for guns I've owned -- and that's a bunch -- and have collected many others off the web. Almost NONE of them specify how to sight the weapons they present, and only a couple offer examples of sight pictures. Glock does (or did) and I've shown that below. A few others say use the "combat hold."
The sight picture being discussed is sometimes called the "Combat Hold" by some shooters (and SOME gun companies), but almost all of those parties use the title but don't offer examples.
The "combat hold" is intended for use at typical handgun (combat) distances (i.e., up close and personal) but It's not the best for distant targets or target shooting, which is what many of us do at the range. The Combat Hold obscures much of the target. when it's not close.
Not all gun makers say to use the Combat Hold, and most don't explain what they mean when they do say to use the Combat Hold.
Here are three examples of different sight pictures: : The first is called the 6 o'clock hold. Both the 2nd and 3rd are called Combat Holds by a number of folks, but image 3 is more widely tied to that naming convention.
Here's the recommended sight picture from an older Glock user's manual -- and it's similar to the second sight picture, above: I prefer this sight picture, as it's useful for both close and distant targets. (And when I have sights that are adjustable, that what they're adjusted to do.)
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roval
Member
thank you!!! my point exactly!!! i always called no. 2 combat hold. no 3 or driving the dot i wasn't aware of till recently.
cslinger
Member
Because when it’s a 2 way range and you have an X ring plastered on you put big front dot over top of what is trying to killify you is easier then the nuances of a six o’clock hold etc.
That being said I prefer a six o’clock hold but run my SIGs and HKs fine and get the concept.
That being said I prefer a six o’clock hold but run my SIGs and HKs fine and get the concept.
WrongHanded
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I have heard #2 referred to as a "9 o'clock hold". I believe that's based on the top of the front sight cutting a horizontal lines through the bullseye directly between the two 9's on a competition target.
Deus Machina
Member
I'm a believer of putting the sights where you want to hit.
Using that reference, #2 for sights without dots, #3 for sights with them. The only difference being whether I have dots for reference or the top of the sight.
Bullseye shooters might but I, personally, have no need for the 6 o'clock hold since I shoot at different targets at different ranges.
Using that reference, #2 for sights without dots, #3 for sights with them. The only difference being whether I have dots for reference or the top of the sight.
Bullseye shooters might but I, personally, have no need for the 6 o'clock hold since I shoot at different targets at different ranges.
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