Purpose of 125gr .357 ammo?

tightgroup tiger said:

I don't think the 158 gr bullet has anything to do with carbine usage.

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I think it is a correct reference to tube loading rifles needing soft point, particularly flat point, bullets.

tightgroup tiger said:

I was under the impression that the S&W barrel's rifling was optimized for accuracy with the 125 gr bullets with it's 1/18.750 twist. The Colts has a 1/16 twist which was more optimized towards 158 gr bullet length.

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In the context of pistol cartridges, it makes no difference whatsoever.

Don't know about ballistics or effectiveness, but 125s are almost tolerable and merely painful out of my 340PD, whereas 158s are excruciating and unusable.

I use 158 grn bullets in my 357's exclusively .That is what it was designed to shoot. Depending upon what it will be used for , I just change bullet type,not weight.

I think 125 gr. loads were introduced in a feeble attempt to get the velocity up at a time when hollowpoint bullets were so crude that high velocity was necessary to get them to expand. Since that time a great many bullets have been developed that will reliably expand at much lower velocities. There is no longer any real need to drive lightweight bullets at supersonic speeds to get expansion. Very lightweight bullets driven to very high velocities are hell on revolver forcing cones and should be avoided unless you consider your revolver to be expendable. This is well documented and not just my opinion or an Internet rumor. The only purpose of lightweight high velocity loads now are to impress shooters with LOTS of flash and bang who are more than willing to pay for it. And consumers are buying into it.

I'm not convinced that newer bullets at lower velocity equal the proven street record of the old school loads.

As for the SP 158gn, the American Eagle version is one of my favorite shootin' loads.

FLNT4EVR said:

I use 158 grn bullets in my 357's exclusively .That is what it was designed to shoot. Depending upon what it will be used for , I just change bullet type,not weight.

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I believe there are different considerations for the smaller frame 357s, with 38 Special the common workaround in lieu of working with reloads and lighter weight bullets in 357 brass.

I prefer 125's because,

• They blow stuff up better
• There is much less change in POI between mag and 38 specials when using 125's vs 158
• They make bigger fireballs
• The blast echos off the trees and makes people who havn't shot one's eyes go wide and smile

Me and my father in law have matching 4.2" SP101's in 357 mag that we both use on the farm. Mine is always loaded with either puffball 38 specials for small game or a 125 with a stiff load of H110 for maximum giggles, but my father in law is quite recoil sensitive but wanted something a bit more than 38's so I have a load I made for him I call "MiniMags". Its a 125 gr jacketed loaded with 7 grains of bullseye. Very soft shooting but gets it going 1200 fps. I even give him two bullet options, a 125 XTP HP, which fully expands at that velocity, and a 125 Zero brand JSP. The JSP do not expand on impact, the tip just flattens out to a wide flat a bit more than bullet diameter. He carries 38's with plated bullets for trapping, the XTP's for yotes and the JSP's for a sidearm during bow hunting.

Drail said:

I think 125 gr. loads were introduced in a feeble attempt to get the velocity up at a time when hollowpoint bullets were so crude that high velocity was necessary to get them to expand. Since that time a great many bullets have been developed that will reliably expand at much lower velocities. There is no longer any real need to drive lightweight bullets at supersonic speeds to get expansion. Very lightweight bullets driven to very high velocities are hell on revolver forcing cones and should be avoided unless you consider your revolver to be expendable. This is well documented and not just my opinion or an Internet rumor. The only purpose of lightweight high velocity loads now are to impress shooters with LOTS of flash and bang who are more than willing to pay for it. And consumers are buying into it.

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I agree completely. Well said Sir.

Thank you.

BobWright said:

Did the same thing many years ago, except no junk yard, but a trash heap! This occurred shortly after I got my first .357 Magnum in the summer of 1958!

The cartoon strip Dick Tracy had shown stopping getaway cars with a .357 Magnum.

Bob Wright

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That ain't nothing compared to what I saw in one episode of Lady Blue. The primary character was a smoking hot, redhead with an attitude. A feminine "Dirty Harry" with a 357 N frame.




She pointed her big, bad, 357 at a Chevy van, fired one shot, and the van blew up in flames and shrapnel! Who needs bulky anti tank guns when a 357 will do the same thing?

I shot thousands of rounds of 125 grain bullets in the 357 Magnum. Still have a number, still shooting then up.

S&W M586 6" Barrel

125 gr JHP Federal Hi Shok Factory

13 Aug 2018 T = 92 ° F

Ave Vel = 1434
Std Dev = 30
ES = 78.26
High = 1468
Low = 1390
N = 6

excellent accuracy at 25 yards

A full power 125 grain bullet is fast, is accurate, and the round produces an absolutely unpleasant muzzle blast that will irritate the other shooters around you. I have no doubt it was effective on killing people, it is more powerful than a 125 grain 38 Special or 125 grain 9mm, but I have never seen a double blind experiment that proved the 125 was that much better than a 158! I think the test design document failed to adequately address the procurement of living test media.

It's not like the good old days, such as documented in this picture of Cleopatra testing the lethality of poison on condemned prisoners.

From Wiki



I think the back story was, this was an antidote test. It was not like anyone really doubted poison was lethal, or even how lethal, because there was a lot of poisoning going on in the ancient world. What was of interest, was determining if there was an antidote: in case some poison got into the food chain.

Drail said:

I think 125 gr. loads were introduced in a feeble attempt to get the velocity up at a time when hollowpoint bullets were so crude that high velocity was necessary to get them to expand. Since that time a great many bullets have been developed that will reliably expand at much lower velocities. There is no longer any real need to drive lightweight bullets at supersonic speeds to get expansion. Very lightweight bullets driven to very high velocities are hell on revolver forcing cones and should be avoided unless you consider your revolver to be expendable. This is well documented and not just my opinion or an Internet rumor. The only purpose of lightweight high velocity loads now are to impress shooters with LOTS of flash and bang who are more than willing to pay for it. And consumers are buying into it.

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While I tend to agree with what has been said above, I don't think it was necessarily a feeble attempt. More of using the technology and mindset of the time. The overall construction and hardness of the material used in a bullet can and will determine expansion just as much as a hole in the end. I've got some JHP hunting bullets for my revolvers that tend to expand less than some of the JSPs. While I understand the concerns of running hot light bullets in an old K-Frame, the 125s are not really a concern of any more recent production .357 revolvers. Only reason there would be any 125 JSPs produced and on the shelves is because someone wants them. If it's just for flash and bang, so be it. Their gun, their money, their choice. I know of folks that like the 125s for shooting paper outta .357 carbines because of the low recoil and superb accuracy. Doubt if whether or not they are JHPs or JSPs matters.

I find the topic of terminal performance on humans distasteful, but I guess it’s necessary. Here are some of my personal beliefs that you are welcome to disagree with.

• If you have a 125 and a 158 that both expand similarly the extra weight just nets more penetration
• Humans are not very thick or very heavily boned, if you have 36” of penetration your mainly putting a deeper hole in the wall.
• A hollow point expands more reliably the faster it’s traveling.
• The hollow points I’ve tested first hand can’t be driven too fast in a revolver.
• When shooting test media (I’ve played with poplar logs and water jugs mostly) the extra 250 FPS from a 125 makes for more dramatic reactions on target.
• 125 and 158 are not that different in weight, 20%

"a hollow point expands more reliably the faster it's traveling." Ummm, no, that's the old technology that everybody had to deal with for many years. Lee Jurras started all of this when he introduced his HiVel line of handgun ammo. It worked as advertised but it was hard on revolvers. Those HiVel loads were most probably the main reason all of those old K frames split their forcing cones. People insisted on pushing them too fast. Modern hollowpoints are pre segmented to start expansion sooner and at slower speeds. And with modern designs it's very easy to reach a velocity where the bullet will come apart if driven too fast. Speer has warnings on their Gold Dot bullets about optimum velocities and warns you not to drive them too fast. Their 200 gr. .44 bullet expands perfectly at 850 fps. Push it above the speed of sound and it will come apart. I didn't believe that but I have tested those bullets and they are correct. I use them in my .44 Spl. carry loads in 2.5 and 3 in. snubs. Even out of a Charter Bulldog they will expand reliably at subsonic speeds in the testing I did. In a Winchester 94 though you need to stay below the manufacturer's "speed limit". So bullets actually "can" be driven too fast in a revolver. Then you still have the problem of light bullets going very fast and eroding forcing cones because they move out of the cylinder before the powder has reached peak pressure and temperature. And that's before it even leaves the barrel. Today there really are no longer any good reasons to choose very light very high velocity loads and several good ones not to use them. Some of you have undoubtedly heard me say this before but I destroyed the forcing cone of a Ruger GP 100 by shooting 110-125 gr. bullets at very high velocites. (1400 fps. plus) The flame erosion just burned the forcing away just like you took an oxy-acetylene cutting torch to it. It only took about 3 months to do this. That load came right of the Speer No. 11 manual. And they deleted that load in the No. 12 manual. Wonder why? It was quite safe regarding max. pressure but it was really hard on barrels. I have to laugh every time I hear somebody rave about how GP 100s are built like a tank and you can't hurt one. I know better.

Catpop said:

I seem to remember something about a 125 gr 357 could penetrate an engine block back in the early days.

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I remember a metal piercing round from the 50s that the Texas Highway Patrol carried. That was reputed to pierce windshields and engine blocks. Saw a box for sale a while back but sale was restricted. Wish I could have bought it.

The 125gr SP was one of the reasons that DW offered a 2nd barrel with all their 357 Supermags and Ruger stopped making them; you could actually get 2 grand+ fps out of 8" barrels, but at the expense of damaging the forcing cone with repeated use. I know of many Ruger 357 Supermags still around and I've got a DW that I've had for yrs and still have the original barrel that's still shooting fine, thanks to listening to the experts and keeping the bullets 180 to 200gr. The original idea was to shoot heavier, longer bullets for Ram events, the longer smaller bullet had a flatter trajectory out to 200 yds.

Hi...
I shoot mostly 158gr LSWC and Hornady JHP/XTPs in my .357Magnum revolvers.
However, I keep a few hundred 125gr Hornady JHP/XTPs near book maximum rounds loaded up for when the range gets too crowded.
A cylinder or two is usually enough to cause a couple of people to suddenly remember that they have an appointment elsewhere.
Apparently they don't like the muzzle blast...

peacebutready said:

These days S&W uses some scandium material in their aluminum revolvers. Is it possible to use scandium in their non aluminum revolvers like the K frame?

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No. Scandium in the fraction of one percent range refines the grain and improves strength of aluminum. It would have no effect on steel.

The usual failure point of a Model 19/66 is at the bottom of the barrel forcing cone where the flat made to clear the gas ring thins the edge.
The current crop has been redesigned to leave the tenon full round there.
I don't know if anybody has tried to beat one to death.

158 GR flat point semi wadcutter. Been there, done that.

(Could you imagine that ad today?)

Thank G_d for Lee Jurras and Super-Vel.

Without him, we'd still be limited to pumpkin rollers.

cheygriz said:

Yeah, that was actually what many folks believed. My chief's BIL was 1/2 owner of a junkyard, so we put that notion to rest quickly.

Amazing what you can learn when you have access to a junkyard!

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On what engine block though? The engine block in my truck weighs around 900 lbs and it's made out of cast iron. The engine block in my buddy's car is aluminum and weighs about 75 lbs. I'm sure a .357 Mag with whatever size bullet really, would penetrate the block on a Honda Civic engine quite easily. Might not go completely through but it'd certainly do catastrophic damage. Conversely, I'm also quite sure it would have a much tougher time penetrating the block of my Dodge Cummins.

When S&W was advertising busting engine blocks, there weren't any miniature Oriental micro-cars around!