More ethical/fair chase still hunting or stand?

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Okay, first off, you've chosen to omit/ignore parts of my post, #92, and attempt to change the context. With that, I'd recommend anyone reading/commenting on this to refer back to that post.

buck460XVR said:
Vandalism that can be identified and traced back to hunters....generally while hunting(and the pursuit and taking of game). What is it folks want to separate? Vandalism is a crime too when you damage other's property. We as hunters are stewards and representatives of our sport. How we present ourselves reflects on all hunters and our sport. Our ethics in the sport do not start or stop, once there is hair in the cross-hairs. Camo and blaze orange is our uniform and how we act when wearing that uniform affects how others perceive us, even when we are not in the field. Wanting to deny it, just shows one is out of touch with reality.
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Hunting is hunting. Vandalism is vandalism. Lawful/ethical hunting is not a crime, and neither is good relations between neighbors. Vandalism is a crime and, hunting or not, it don't make for good neighbors.

The chastising of the game wardens statements makes me sense a dislike of game wardens. In my experience, this either comes from someone with a dislike of following the rules, or someone who has had a bad experience with wardens. In the case of the latter, folks identify their previous negative experience with every other warden experience because of the uniform. This is where I was coming from in my above statement. As for hunting being a right, it has been declared that by many state amendments to their constitutions. While it guarantees us we can hunt, it doesn't guarantee any of us a place to hunt. Negative examples of hunting and shooting does not just close opportunities on private land.
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What chastising? There's different opinions on rights and priveliges. I'll get back to this later.

Okay, it's later... buck460VXR appearantly doesn't take into account where I said a failure in how we relate with the public/landowners, and failure to manage the resources, will result in the loss of resources if not just the use of those resources. Any debate... rights vs priveliges... will then be a moot point.

buck460VXR's comment sounds like he doesn't know who he's talking to. Of course, I don't know him either. So he doesn't know me, and he probably doesn't know the game warden in my county. The warden I'm talking about... actually, here I recall they also call themselves "Conservation Officers" which isn't a bad job description... he's a nice guy, also a hunter... as well, he's a professional and he'll do his job. He told us in class "if you have a problem, call me; I'm here to help."

The wardens talking about hunting being a privelige... I figure that's because of the license requirement and licenses can get revoked for any of several illegalities. But, as licensed hunters, we have the privelige of exercising the right when/where/how it legally/ethically fits. This isn't like medieval England... getting caught "poaching" a deer would get your hand summarily amputated... you'd never pull a longbow again. Care to compare and contrast on that one?
 
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Jmorris,

Not to disagree, but to expand your definition.

I've always considered ethics a code of conduct.

It is both a personal and community code.
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Honesty is telling the truth, integrity is being honest when no one would know if you were not.

Ethics are “values” or a sense of “right and wrong” that one acquires in their life and they differ from person to person.

It would be dishonest to tell a game warden that you never took an animal illegally but if that same person did so to keep his family from starving, it would be perfectly “ethical”, in the terms of right vs wrong. Quite different than just for fun or a wall hanger. Hypothetical and unlikely but an example.
 
Most of y'all would likely not wanna do what I did last week, shoot culls off a high fence ranch. But, hey, I've got 6 deer, 3 are in the freezer. Still got work to do. :D AND, we helped out that rancher. It cost nothing more'n a motel room, gas to get there, and a 100 dollar tip to the kid that quartered all that meat while we sat in the stands culling doe and cull bucks. :D Personally, that 100 dollar tip was money well spent. I was tired enough at the end of the day. :D
 
MCgunner, just wondering if the pastures... aka, traps... on that particular ranch are as big as I was picturing. It don't sound like a bad deal to me. (I've got a post back up thread on high fence.)

Okay, here's another thing just came back to me... and this is in no way comparable to hunting a real high fence ranch... a "sportsman's group", supposed to be promoting hunting puts on a "hunting trip" for disable people. Uh-huh. I saw photos and somebody was telling me how cool it was they did this... they rolled the wheelchair into a barnyard and let the disabled "hunter" shoot a domestic goat. I was sorta invited to join their group, but that ain't hunting. I'm sure the goats made for a pretty good barbecue, but let's call it what it actually is and not pretend "hunting".
 
jmorris said:
It would be dishonest to tell a game warden that you never took an animal illegally but if that same person did so to keep his family from starving, it would be perfectly “ethical”, in the terms of right vs wrong.
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Only at the sixth level of morality, according to Kohlberg. Very few people operate at that level of morality consistently. Actually, at the sixth level, one would tell the warden they did take an animal illegally, but would willingly submit to the penalty. I know I'm not at that level, I would do the three S's; Shoot, saute, and shut up.

cheygriz said:
It is both a personal and community code.
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I always thought ethics were personal; applied to a community, it would more correctly be called be social mores. There were people with impeccable ethics in, say Caligula's Rome, where the social mores were in the toilet.
 
mustanger98 said:
MCgunner, just wondering if the pastures... aka, traps... on that particular ranch are as big as I was picturing. It don't sound like a bad deal to me. (I've got a post back up thread on high fence.)

Okay, here's another thing just came back to me... and this is in no way comparable to hunting a real high fence ranch... a "sportsman's group", supposed to be promoting hunting puts on a "hunting trip" for disable people. Uh-huh. I saw photos and somebody was telling me how cool it was they did this... they rolled the wheelchair into a barnyard and let the disabled "hunter" shoot a domestic goat. I was sorta invited to join their group, but that ain't hunting. I'm sure the goats made for a pretty good barbecue, but let's call it what it actually is and not pretend "hunting".
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I posted about it here.... https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mld-permit-hunt.845150/


The pastures were mostly grown up in thorny south Texas brush, typical brush country. Lots of prickly pear (many pads partially eaten, sign the Javelina were there), cat claw, huisache, etc. Everything has thorns in that country. The place had senderos cut down it for the UTV and as shooting lanes, as much as 300 yards of view, but the feeders were mostly at 100 yards. I'm POSITIVE I've seen shows on outdoor channel filmed on ranches like this where the big bucks just trot out on senderos narry a care in the world. LOL I saw LOTS of HUGE racked bucks we couldn't shoot. THAT was amazing. I'm not real used to that especially late in the season. They get lots of bucks for those bucks, though. It's why I've always said, getting a large antlered deer is just a matter of money. Of course, shoot it on a high fence and it won't score with Boone and Crockett. I don't think the rich folks care, though, just want something impressive to mount on the wall of their dentist office or whatever. Me, I was just there because it was free and there was meat. :D
 
buck460XVR said:
As for hunting being a right, it has been declared that by many state amendments to their constitutions. While it guarantees us we can hunt, it doesn't guarantee any of us a place to hunt.
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^^^^^ Correct, as of November 2018 there are 22 States with State Constitutions recognizing the 'right' of its citizens to hunt, fish and take game (with restrictions). Of interest...is that all of these amendments (save for one, Vermont) have been codified since 1996 (fairly recently). In my own State (Texas) only since 2015.
 
As long as I hunt on my own property , my children , grandchildren and I do not need a license , but we still have to follow the state game laws for my county and call in deer , bear and turkey kills .
 
Mn Fats said:
It would be dishonest to tell a game warden that you never took an animal illegally but if that same person did so to keep his family from starving, it would be perfectly “ethical”, in the terms of right vs wrong. Quite different than just for fun or a wall hanger. Hypothetical and unlikely but an example.
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You can be "right" in one way ethically and at the same time "wrong" in another way for the very same action.

Reminds me of the joke about the man arrested for killing and eating spotted owls. He went before the judge and threw himself on the mercy of the court, explaining how his family was starving and that he never would have killed an endangered animal but not for the cries of hunger coming from his poor children. The judge was moved by the story and told the man that he was going to let him off with time served and a warning, plus help him get into a program to help his family, but before dropping the gavel and letting him go, the judge said, "Before I do this, I just have to know. What does spotted owl taste like?" To this the man replied, "Well judge, it is actually pretty good, but there isn't much meat, however. With time and practice, if you cook it right, it tastes like a cross between bald eagle and baby fur seal." ....

You can be ethical and unethical with the same practice.
 
MCgunner's post #107 is an illustration of what I'd understood about high fence ranches. No, that wouldn't bother me a bit. That hunt/shoot, as per the linked thread, was about managing a herd and harvesting meat. In my area, 600acres is a good sized piece of real estate any one deer might not use all of it. Any one hunter usually won't either.
 
Texas wildlife biologists have stated that in general, assuming a water supply, a whitetail deer lives within a section of land--640 acres. Thus when I see high-fenced pastures well on up in the few-thousand-acre size (which seems common), I figure that it's as free-range as suits Bambi.

I've seen high-fence pastures where the brush and cactus were so thick that the only way you'd see a deer would be if he stood on his hind legs and waved at you. Ergo, high stands, elevated seats in the back of pickup trucks and senderos.

So you do the improved pasture thing: You plant growies that deer eat. You augment the water supply. Isn't that just like baiting? You would attract deer from all around the area. So, you build the high fence to keep deer OUT of your expensive pasture. That way you can control the size of the herd and its quality. Customers won't pay beaucoup dollars to shoot puny does or scraggle-horn bucks.

Note: This does not mean that I approve of these deer-breeding programs that result in ultra-width antler spreads and beaucoup points. To me, IMO, it's like what the American Kennel Club has done to show dogs. Grotesque. Barf time.

Some FWIW: I was driving back roads from Luckenbach to south Austin one late afternoon. Saw an oat patch with a bunch of deer. I stopped and did a rough approximation head count: Somewhere over 80 to maybe 100 deer. Mostly does. None looked like a live weight of much over 100 pounds. IOW, the sort of deer that a high fence would keep out.
 
Ethics are in the eyes of the beholder. Follow the laws and shoot within your own limitations (and the limits of your gear). Otherwise, its just a question of your personal preferences/what makes you sleep better at night. Around here, chasing deer with dogs and ambushing them with buckshot when they run out into the open is both legal and common. Not my game, but I don't judge those who hunt this way.
 
Art Eatman said:
Texas wildlife biologists have stated that in general, assuming a water supply, a whitetail deer lives within a section of land--640 acres. Thus when I see high-fenced pastures well on up in the few-thousand-acre size (which seems common), I figure that it's as free-range as suits Bambi.

I've seen high-fence pastures where the brush and cactus were so thick that the only way you'd see a deer would be if he stood on his hind legs and waved at you. Ergo, high stands, elevated seats in the back of pickup trucks and senderos.

So you do the improved pasture thing: You plant growies that deer eat. You augment the water supply. Isn't that just like baiting? You would attract deer from all around the area. So, you build the high fence to keep deer OUT of your expensive pasture. That way you can control the size of the herd and its quality. Customers won't pay beaucoup dollars to shoot puny does or scraggle-horn bucks.
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This part about planting feed vs baiting seems to be a recurring question. Hunt in an apple orchard and it's fine, but throw a few apples in the orchard and it's bait. Plant corn and it's fine, but throw corn and that's bait. The gotta have access to water year round regardless, and salt's good for them in hot weather. But, to hunt over all this, or not... check your state's game laws.

I've seen some high fence on tv where they closed off pasture to the deer until the forage plants were big enough. Then they'd lift the panels so the deer could walk in under the fence. Interesting, but real expensive.

Note: This does not mean that I approve of these deer-breeding programs that result in ultra-width antler spreads and beaucoup points. To me, IMO, it's like what the American Kennel Club has done to show dogs. Grotesque. Barf time.
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This, I've only seen on tv... Outdoor Channel and Pursuit Channel before I quit watching tv. Those deer look like somebody's science project, or maybe they've been hanging around too close to a nuclear power plant. And it seems like those breeding programs were getting the bulk of the airtime. Made me wonder how they think they're promoting hunting.
 
MCgunner said:
So, could you see the whole 600 sections from where you were? If no, then you weren't hunting 600 sections.
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When I hunted out West in central northern NV, I could sit on a mountaintop and see 100 MILES in EVERY direction; that is a lot bigger than 600 sections, let alone 600 acres.
 
mustanger98 said:
This part about planting feed vs baiting seems to be a recurring question. Hunt in an apple orchard and it's fine, but throw a few apples in the orchard and it's bait. Plant corn and it's fine, but throw corn and that's bait. The gotta have access to water year round regardless, and salt's good for them in hot weather. But, to hunt over all this, or not... check your state's game laws.

I've seen some high fence on tv where they closed off pasture to the deer until the forage plants were big enough. Then they'd lift the panels so the deer could walk in under the fence. Interesting, but real expensive.



This, I've only seen on tv... Outdoor Channel and Pursuit Channel before I quit watching tv. Those deer look like somebody's science project, or maybe they've been hanging around too close to a nuclear power plant. And it seems like those breeding programs were getting the bulk of the airtime. Made me wonder how they think they're promoting hunting.
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Yeah, there's a show on Pursuit channel about deer farming. They breed these grotesque looking racks and sell semen and bucks like cattle breeders or prize racer horse breeders. Their market is the high fence ranchers. This is not my cuppa tea, personally. I just ain't into antlers that much. Oh, if something like that walked out in front of me during deer season, I'd shoot it, likely would mount it, but I ain't paying 5 grand for the privilege of shooting one. I won't deny YOU the right to do that, if that's your thing. Heck, I'm a Chevy truck guy. I have never owned a Ford and see no real use for one.....but if YOU......:rofl:
 
Now we get into walking all day and glassing from the ridge tops... I can imagine covering a lot of ground that way, but even with good glass, there's only so far out you can see an animal and tell anything about it. You might see a lot more the 600sections between you and the horizon in some areas, but I'm guessing the average hunter is limited to seeing an animal out to 1000-1200yds with glass and then the ability to close the distance to a workable ethical shooting distance.

In my part of the country, 200yds is usually considered a long shot.
 
Where I hunt we rarely have a 75 yard opening and that would be to far with buckshot . I had 2 nice bucks and a doe run by me about 70 yards last Saturday . They were to far so I just watched them go . If I would have stayed where I did #2 , would have had a shot at them . They ran right by that spot , go figure .
 
I operate on the basis of, "You just never know." I watched a doe lie down and begin chewing her cud. Underneath my tree stand, maybe eight feet below me. Shoot her? Naw, just dropped pieces of bark on her and watched her skin twitch. :)

Most of my kills were somewhere around a hundred yards, mas o menos. But one at 450 and one at 350. I hunted one area where shots could be of the Ma Bell sort, but my last kill was at maybe 20 or so yards. Go figure.

I made a lot of walking-hunt loops of three miles or more on a 7,000-acre ranch not far north of Uvalde. Good hunting; several successful years.
In south Brewster County, sometimes a day-long loop would be over ten miles. But, as much sight-seeing and exploring as actual hunting.
 
MCgunner said:
Yeah, there's a show on Pursuit channel about deer farming. They breed these grotesque looking racks and sell semen and bucks like cattle breeders or prize racer horse breeders. Their market is the high fence ranchers. This is not my cuppa tea, personally. I just ain't into antlers that much. Oh, if something like that walked out in front of me during deer season, I'd shoot it, likely would mount it, but I ain't paying 5 grand for the privilege of shooting one. I won't deny YOU the right to do that, if that's your thing. Heck, I'm a Chevy truck guy. I have never owned a Ford and see no real use for one.....but if YOU......:rofl:
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Sounds like Keith Warren. When I was listening to him, he said plenty I agree with. I recall the opening montage for "The High Road"... the point being so much division among hunters... they can't just figure that a lot of the differences aren't so much wrong as they are just different. The deer farming, though, isn't my thing either.

The crazy-looking racks... I'll just say the bucks I've killed, seen killed, or just seen in my area have mostly been pretty normal... much nicer variety of racks. I'm not sure it makes the meat taste any different.
 
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