Tension between hunting ethics?

[MidwestMatthew]

Although I'm personally a new hunter, I've known hunters all my life. From them, I've learned that, other than legality and following safety rules, there are really only two primary principles of hunting ethics:

1.) Only take a clean shot, and,
2.) Follow the rules of fair chase.

At the hunter's safety course I took a couple of months ago, the instructors (both lifelong hunters in their 80's) spent a fair bit of time on both these points.

Regarding clean kills, they spent several minutes hammering on students to never shoot at a running deer, because it's hard to kill them cleanly when they're running.

Almost immediately after making that point, they got into Fair Chase and spent a similar amount of time chastising hunters who shoot sitting birds, because it's not giving the birds a chance.

It seemed obvious to me that their examples of Fair Chase totally contradicted what they'd just said about clean shots. But when I asked one of the instructors about this after the class, it was clear he'd never thought about that conflict himself. He told told me that everyone has to make up their own minds about it, but it seemed evident he had been taught a certain hunting ethic, decades ago, and had never questioned it before.

So, is it just me, or is there actually some real tension between these two rules? If so, what is a proper balance?

 

[gspn]

Only you can find the proper balance for you.

It's clear that you are a thoughtful and intelligent hunter. Most people might never have even considered the contradiction in the lesson that was being taught. You're now on a good road...one that will lead you to think about ethics, to consider your actions as well as what's fair to the animal. Again, in the end, it's up to you to find what works for you.

In my area of the world, duck/dove hunting might be the most interesting topic for an ethics discussion. People love to hunt them, but few people practice. I hear countless stories about how it took 3 boxes of shells to get a few birds. When it takes 75 shots to kill 5 or 6 birds...you know there are a lot of wounded flying off. Is it ethical to hunt without practicing?

I never hear anyone ask that question in real world conversations.

Ethics in hunting is an interesting topic. Like 'norms' in society, everyone has their own individual preferences, but they tend to coalesce to a degree to form a larger "norm" for what is an acceptable range of behaviors.

I imagine hunting is no different. Individuals do things the way they were taught, or the way they learned to modify them. The group as a whole will never see everything the same way, but certain arguments might be able to sway the behavior of the group as a whole. It's an interesting topic.

 

[huntsman]

If you're hunting birds for sport then shooting them in the pre-flight position is bad form, if you're hunting for food then you do what needs done.

FWIW I never shoot a running deer because I don't like gutshot deer.

 

[der Teufel]

I was told (many, many years ago) that shooting sitting birds, besides being unsporting, was more likely to produce cripples. The theory was that their wind feathers provided some protection against shotgun pellets when the wings are folded. You might injure, but not kill them cleanly. Therefore, it was considered not only more sporting, but also more humane, to shoot them in flight so that more pellets could penetrate their body. YMMV.

 

[Patocazador]

It seems that each hunter thinks his way of hunting is the only ethical way. Hint: never show your compound or crossbow to a traditional archer unless you have 20 minutes to waste being hounded. Same goes for a sidelock muzzleloader when shown an in-line.

IMO all it does is cause dissension in the ranks of hunters allowing the antis to have an easier time.

 

[jmr40]

You'll find huge differences in hunting customs across this country. What is perfectly legal and considered ethical in some places is considered unethical and is illegal in others.

I chose to hunt the way I prefer to hunt. I let others do the same. You have to decide what is ethical to you.

 

[CraigC]

Shoot flying birds with a shotgun and shooting at running deer with a rifle (or anything else launching a single projectile) are two very, very, very different things. Shooting fast moving objects is the reason for the shotgun's existence.

Go to Germany/Austria/Belgium and you'll see A LOT Of shooting running critters with rifles.

 

[hq]

FWIW I never shoot a running deer because I don't like gutshot deer.

It doesn't necessarily mean that. Until a few years ago the deer and moose license around here required passing a test: three consecutive shots at 55 yards to the vitals section of a moose target moving at 10mph. That was just the absolute minimum to make sure all licensed hunters were able to take accurate, properly led shots offhand at running game. The rule of the thumb is to rather lead too much than too little and there's no magic involved, just basic knowledge of the round you're using relative to estimated distance and speed of a running deer.

If you've never practised shooting moving targets and don't feel confident you can put a bullet through the heart/lungs, it's better to not even attempt it, of course.

 

[Bobson]

Only you can find the proper balance for you.

Pretty much this.

Unfortunately, ethics are entirely subjective. If you don't believe that, go ask a member of ISIS if what they're doing is wrong.

I don't bird hunt, but I do hunt rabbits without a dog. I take both a shotgun and a 22, and given the chance, I'll shoot a sitting rabbit every time over swinging the shotgun on on that's running. Some guys would say that's unsporting. Maybe to them. Doesn't bother me one bit. OTOH, I think stand hunting over bait is unsporting, the only exception being removing wild hogs.

To each his own. Who cares what other people think? You'll always offend someone. As long as I'm not offending God, I'm not losing sleep over it.

 

[DeepSouth]

I've shot and killed several running deer, I've never really thought of it as unethical. Most all shots on drives and dog hunts are at running deer. So is that now unethical hunting practice?

I've also shot many a dove off a power line when I was a boy, if my dad had the grill fired up and one sat on the line next to our house, he'd be on the grill in about 5 minutes, all snuggled up in a nice bacon blanket.....Now I'm getting hungry.


I'll tell you what else I've done that'll really drive people nuts. I've intentionally gut shot possums and armadillo's so hopefully they'll run off and die in a hole far enough away that I can't smell them and don't have to touch them.....not hungry anymore.

 

[chuckpro]

I have had this same thought, I try to teach my son to have respect for the whatever game we are pursuing, by not making the animal suffer by wounding them with a bad shot that requires them to bleed out for a long time. My view on shooting birds that are sitting is that as long as it is legal there is nothing wrong with it as long as they don't suffer. My son is 12 and I do not allow him to shoot running Deer, and most of the time I don't either, but I have in the past when I knew I had a good shot and dropped them in their tracks. This thread got my attention because just this morning I shot a fairly large Buck with my 44( first time with it), it was a well-placed shot right behind the shoulder and I ended up tracking him 600 yards. I have never had this happen to me before and am little upset with myself about it. I think it was at just the right angle that the bullet caught one lung and missing the heat. I will know more tomorrow when I skin him out. I will either be adjusting my bullets or moving up to only pistol hunting wth the 500. Sorry for the rambling but I guess my point is that determining what is ethical is a process and not black and white.

 

[gspn]

I think it was at just the right angle that the bullet caught one lung and missing the heat. I will know more tomorrow when I skin him out.

Please post up once you figure it out. I'd love to hear the rest of the story. I'm always interested in shot placement and terminal performance.

 

[PapaG]

In the Republik of Illinois, shooting any bird on the ground other than turkey is illegal (finishing of downed ducks is o.k.).
Better check your game laws. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

[Coyote3855]

Doesn't drive me nuts, but substantially reduces my respect for your ethics. To cause needless suffering makes no sense to me.

 

[DeepSouth]

Interesting you bring up need, as nearly all hunting in this country is needless. For what hunting gear and such costs you can buy meat at a grocery store that was killed in a controlled environment specially designed to be swift and humane.


As for me it has not thing to with need, it has to with desire. My desire to not touch the nasty things is greater than my desire to end his life without suffering.

 

[wankerjake]

It seems that each hunter thinks his way of hunting is the only ethical way.

I'll say. See it all the time. Kinda drives me nuts lately. My philosophy is if it's legal then it's not my business how another guy hunts. Good for him.

One current thing that drives me nuts is people are generally good with jump shooting deer, still hunting and shooting them on the run. Those same people think shooting past 300 yards is unethical. I'd be interested to know which one results in more wounded animals. My guess is that it would surprise a lot of folks.

Archery elk same deal, in fact I'd be willing to bet more elk get wounded during bow hunts than any other.

Regardless, as long as it's legal, I wholeheartedly support your right to do it.

 

[Big JJ]

Huntsman above is right.
Do what has to be done depending on your own reason for hunting.
It is a morals question and every one knows that every person on the planet has different morals and we all think we are right.
It's your call if it is legal.

 

[newfalguy101]

I don't see the conflict.

When deer hunting, typically only a single projectile is being used.

When bird hunting, typically a shotgun is used throwing multiple projectiles, making flying shots practical.

 

[The Alaskan]

Interesting you bring up need, as nearly all hunting in this country is needless. For what hunting gear and such costs you can buy meat at a grocery store that was killed in a controlled environment specially designed to be swift and humane.

I could argue this all day long.

For one, for some of us, hunting is still a necessity. Even if it's not, one could argue that the nutritional quality of the game meat is superior to that of store bought AND I have the knowledge that it didn't come from China tainted with some poison.

Two: the living and slaughterhouse conditions of cattle and pen-raised birds could hardly be called "humane."

Three. Yes, hunting gear is expensive, especially 4 wheelers, but, like all hobbies, once the gear is bought and paid for, it doesn't cost much to participate. Yes, the price of admission is high, but it's a s mall price to pay to not be dependent upon those grocery stores in which you place such confidence.

 

[Nature Boy]

I guess I'm a bad person. Most of my deer hunting growing up was in front of dogs. The deer were always running unless it was a deer trying to slip the dogs. Either way, they were always moving.

 

[DeepSouth]

For one, for some of us, hunting is still a necessity. Even if it's not, one could argue that the nutritional quality of the game meat is superior to that of store bought AND I have the knowledge that it didn't come from China tainted with some poison.

I said "nearly" all, which is less than "all." Their are exceptions, but most people don't need to hunt, again most people. If memory serves hunting in this country is roughly a 35 billion dollar industry, how many groceries you think we could buy for 35b.

Two: the living and slaughterhouse conditions of cattle and pen-raised birds could hardly be called "humane."

The living conditions of my cattle are rather nice, about 2 acres each, free hay and feed. As for a slaughter house, they pop them in the head with a steel rod directly into the brain, then they drop and are dead when they hit ground, if not before. Much more humane than a lung shot IMO.

Three. Yes, hunting gear is expensive, especially 4 wheelers, but, like all hobbies, once the gear is bought and paid for, it doesn't cost much to participate. Yes, the price of admission is high, but it's a s mall price to pay to not be dependent upon those grocery stores in which you place such confidence.

My gear has been bought and paid for, for years and yet every year I buy seed and fertilizer, fuel for the tractors to plant. Some people buy tons of corn, ect, ect. Their is no doubt the deer meat in my freezer is the most expensive meat in it, I even pay someone to take my meat and turn it into sausage. But you're correct, it can be done cheap, my point is only that normally it's an expensive way to acquire food, in our current culture and society.


Remember the context of my comment, it was a rebuttal to "needless suffering"
Their is a certain amount of "needless suffering" in every animal I've ever hunted and killed. Heck, I'm fat and in large part to eating meat......wouldn't that then be causing "needless suffering" to some extent no matter where the meat came from?

 

[Schwing]

It was questions like this that lead me to give up hunting altogether. Don't get me wrong, I still like my steaks rare and have no problem with others who do hunt, I just don't feel like it is for me.

I will still tag along when others go, I just don't pull the trigger anymore.

 

[Art Eatman]

Fair chase, clean kill. That's the main deal for me. I don't worry as much about clean kill when it's pests rather than game animals. Still, clean kill without suffering is best.

I've been able to make a few clean kills on running rabbits and running deer, although for rabbits there were many misses--and most any hit allowed a very quick second shot for a quick kill.

I'd rather walk or stalk when I hunt, although I've sat in a box blind on rare occasion, or on a tree stand. Never hunted over bait, although I've hung around in the general vicinity of a feeder. It all depends on vegetation and terrain. Open country is a different hunting scene than thick brush and woods.

I guess I figure that if you can be proud of how you did your kill and tell about it to honest folks, you're probably okay.

Need to hunt? Sure, if you want to eat game meat. Never saw venison at the Safeway.

Birds on the ground? If you hunt blue quail in west Texas, you darned well better be ready to take a ground shot. Those birds are running dudes, for sure. I've jumped many a covey at ten or fifteen yards that didn't fly until forty or fifty yards out. "Run-run birds". They'd drive a well-trained bobwhite bird dog absolutely nuts.

 

[entropy]

My desire to not touch the nasty things is greater than my desire to end his life without suffering.

From his sig line:

Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.....Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Does anyone else see the irony here?

 

[DeepSouth]

From his sig line:

Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.....Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Does anyone else see the irony here?

I suppose if you put human life on the same level as armadillos and possums then it'd be ironic.