$50 bolt carrier groups

PSA has definitely become a household name in AR-15's in the past few years, but I have some doubts about the claim that they've essentially taken over the industry. For me, PSA has a place in the world mostly for cheaper firearms. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for cheaper firearms in this world. My 'truck gun' is an AR-15 I built from a PSA kit for a grand total of maybe $325 out the door. That's the gun that I take camping, and don't mind beating around; if I have to leave a gun in a vehicle, I don't mind leaving that one. I've also used PSA kits to introduce new shooters or low-budget shooters to the AR-15 (a friend of mine just acquired his first AR-15 on a PSA kit).

Overall PSA kits are well constructed for what they are, and every one I've seen runs reliably. But, when I get serious about AR-15 stuff I leave the PSA stuff behind. My precision AR's aren't built on their kits, nor are my other higher end rifles. PSA is a great option for introducing people to the AR platform, and it's a great way for people to have a budget conscious AR. But, the AR platform also has potential far beyond just those purposes.

Coloradokevin,

You’re right in that their low end stuff is a great value. But as someone earlier pointed out, PSA isn’t just low end. They have parts, kits and guns in all price points. So your broad brush generalization is a bit outdated and lacking.

Personally for the price points they’re at they’re hard to beat.

Im certainly not expecting my 18"ss PSA kit to run like a Wilson Combat, but with a LaRue trigger I glommed on sale it should punch above its weight class price wise. Even with the trigger and a BCM gunfighter handle I'll come in less than a M&P Sport, Ruger or Shrubmaster and should be a nicer rifle.

I like PSA for what they are and am really looking forward to playing with a MP5 knockoff.

ar-newbie said:

To put that another way, it is believed that PSA is cranking out over 1 million ar-15 rifles and rifle kits/ uppers per year.

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I read an article this morning which stated they were producing 77,000 receivers annually, based on ATF numbers, and selling 4,800 rifles.

ETA: yup, reading the annual report, I think it’s a really far stretch of the imagination to say PSA has sold more AR’s than any other brand. Definitely a heavy hitter in annual sales, but looking at their rifle numbers from 2017, they sold sparsely a thousand or so more rifles than Delton. Looks like Aero ran about half of the volume of PSA, so it’s further a pretty far stretch to say those two made up 75%+ of the market... I think you’ve fallen victim to some creative authorship in some article somewhere.

Varminterror said:

@ar-newbie, do you have total volume numbers for comparison? Being half of the market for 3 years is impressive, and I’m sure they did well in the last ~10yrs they have been selling rifles, but there are companies out there who have been selling AR’s for 30-40yrs longer than PSA, in a much smaller competition roster where only a few names owned the entire market, AND including 2 or 3 booms where high numbers of AR’s reached the market.

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tarosean said:

Go dig through the link I posted to Varminterror.

Just looking at 2017 data.

S&W produced. 265356 rifles.
Anderson produced 211382 "Others/Misc"

PSA produced 161694. Pistols/Rifles and Others/Misc" combined.

Thats just two company's compared to all PSA's offerings.

Obviously cannot break down the Giants i.e. Rugers 659657 rifles

I think your claim is far from reality.

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If they haven't made it to that point, it won't be too much longer, provided they can keep moving inventory like they have been. I am not saying they are the best, but you can't deny they are moving serious quantities of rifles. It is already amazing to see how they have grown from 11 or 12 years ago selling magazines and accessories for low prices to what they have grown into. Has there been any other companies that have started from scratch and grew to that size in such a short period of time?

There are a lot of things they still don't really get right either, the web site is awful, and some of their products are still having fairly serious hiccups like the PA-10 rifles can be problematic if you don't know how to correct the issues.

The way to move high volumes is catering to the everyman instead of those dedicated to laying out big money for a rifle. There will always be a place for the bespoke rifles, but there is also a place for things that just work. If someone is looking for extremely budget oriented and mid range ar-15 rifles and parts kits, PSA does provide compelling value.

They’re not selling as many total firearms as S&W was selling as complete rifles, and not even matching Anderson’s....

Long was from the top. Doesn’t mean they’re not a big player and doesn’t mean they don’t make good stuff, but it’s a long damned ways from 50% of all AR’s sold, and MILES away from truth in your original statement: PSA putting more AR’s in American hands than anyone. The data is right in front of you - they aren’t.

I would love to see a breakdown of Ruger’s number - I have to think their AR-556 number is greater than S&W’s number, since they likely sell 1:1 complete rifles, but Ruger also sells stripped receivers to gain a lead on S&W. But then I would be somewhat disappointed if half of Ruger’s rifle volume were from AR-556’s.

DC Machine is a subsidiary of PSA, they produce barrels and receiver sets. Their daily barrel production in fall of 2018 was 1,800 barrels per day. They operate 2 shifts, 5 days a week, the annual production based on that figure is 468,000 barrels a year. That is a whole lot of rifle barrels. The vast majority of their barrels go straight into PSA guns and rifle kits. PSA on the other hand, does not exclusively use DC Machine made barrels, they also source from FN Herstal and wilson. Remember, the figures you quoted earlier were actual firearms, a large portion of PSA sales are rifle kits, which is everything EXCEPT for the lower receiver. The actual "firearm" according to the government. All these kit sales are not reflected in the figures you cited. If you consider this, it makes the picture different in a significant way.

another factor here, Anderson is getting credit for a serious amount of stripped lowers, as they are the defacto market leader in that niche part of the market. So if anderson is shipping a couple hundred thousand stripped lowers a year, and the presumed majority of those end up going with a PSA rifle kit, then who should claim the numbers? Confusing isn't it? The rise of the DIY aspect of AR rifles muddies the waters significantly. Makes you wonder how many AR15 are sold complete, and how does that compare to the DIY numbers per year. I am just one average person, who knows at least 20 different people who have also built rifles from kits. In my case they are coworkers, and others in my industry who I do business with. They all dabbled in DIY to get a functional rifle for a lot less money than over the counter.

I just find the business aspect of all this interesting. I also believe it would not be a good thing for a single company to get too much market share as that stifles competition and innovation, but does put pressure on the rest to step up their game.

I wasn't the source of the more than 50% figure. I know I read it several places before I ever said it. I have since been trying to find the references to it. I know it floored me when I first heard it. I was quite skeptical of it myself initially. That being said, when I go to local ranges I never fail to see PSA guns being used every time I go out.I also see quite a few rugers and S&W as well. As far as what i see being used, I would say in my area it was about 30 percent PSA, 20 percent S&W, 20 percent Ruger, and about 30% other brands , higher end stuff.

I thought this topic was about BCGs.

yeah, it's kind of gone off course. I am expecting the $49 nitride BCG to arrive tomorrow

ar-newbie said:

The way to move high volumes is catering to the everyman instead of those dedicated to laying out big money for a rifle.

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You're going to be severely disappointed to learn that over a 5 year span Daniel Defense outsells PSA.

2017-2013 from the reports- Rifles and Pistols only. (I was bored last night)

DD = 150788
PSA = 73010

More interesting to me was someone like Radical who went from 15256 in 2016 to 91205 in 2017.

ar-newbie said:

another factor here, Anderson is getting credit for a serious amount of stripped lowers,as they are the defacto market leader in that niche part of the market.

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That is a vast majority of PSA's business as evidenced by the numbers. So you cannot discount one and praise the other. They reside in the same niche.

Over the same 5 years Misc.

PSA = 475468
Anderson = 511718
Aero = 287816

ar-newbie said:

Makes you wonder how many AR15 are sold complete, and how does that compare to the DIY numbers per year

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I would say that a vast majority of rifles are sold complete. Sure Internet forums, such as this one, make it appear quite popular. However, you must realize that all forums comprise of just a small fraction of the gun ownership in the US.

Here in Florida it's not just an internet thing. There is a huge amount of 80% lower business going on, and kits are very popular. People finishing lowers are getting the rest of the parts shipped in.

ar-newbie said:

Here in Florida it's not just an internet thing. There is a huge amount of 80% lower business going on, and kits are very popular. People finishing lowers are getting the rest of the parts shipped in.

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No one is disputing that they are popular.. Why else would you have 3 companies producing 1.275m lowers over 5 years?
But when we go back to the numbers... Take S&W again, they produced 1.379m Rifles over that same 5years. Thats just S&W, whom pails in production numbers to Remington and Ruger, they produce 2-3x the amount of rifles. Unfortunately we cannot separate out their various platforms from their AR's.

I was listening to a Podcast the other day with some NSSF reps. They were estimating approximately 16million+ AR's in circulation in America.

Course you look at that 1.2m number and get excited.. I look at it and sorta irked because 1.2m potential buyers not supporting public Ranges and Wildlife by skirting the Excise Tax. (Its about the ONLY tax I don't mind paying)

ar-newbie said:

Here in Florida it's not just an internet thing. There is a huge amount of 80% lower business going on, and kits are very popular. People finishing lowers are getting the rest of the parts shipped in.

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His point is that the “Everyman” who buys an AR is a lot more like the average gun buyer than the average Internet forum guy, or average guy you seem to pay attention to in your part of Florida.

The average gun buyer, or AR buyer is buying their first rifle. Many, many of these guys are daunted by building, so they are buying rifles, not parts.

I do believe, however, based on interpretation of the numbers in the ATF reports, the average AR sold is a stripped lower, not as a rifle. So what that says to me - those of us who buy stripped lowers, buy a LOT of them. I’ve slowed down a lot since my son was born 5 years ago, but I tend to average a dozen or so each year myself.

80% builds, however, are a ridiculously small percentage of AR builds.

In the years I had my doors open building custom AR’s as an FFL, I built just under 200 AR’s from the ground up, but had three times that volume in upgrade/customization rebuild work. It was very common to talk through a potential build with a would-be first timer, find out they really just wanted a blasting carbine, then sell them a factory rifle, plus some customization work. You see the same thing today - so many guys buy an assembled lower and upper, pin them together and call it a “build.”

But you can see the numbers and interpret a lot from the ATF report. S&W is selling more rifles than PSA’s total number of items. I think it is safe to expect Ruger sells as many AR-556’s as S&W sells of M&P-15’s... but there are a LOT of component sellers which don’t build rifles. It might be neck and neck, but I do know on consumer trends, if a rifle is being bought, it’s usually their only one, whereas if a lower is being bought, it is not.

tarosean said:

Course you look at that 1.2m number and get excited.. I look at it and sorta irked because 1.2m potential buyers not supporting public Ranges and Wildlife by skirting the Excise Tax. (Its about the ONLY tax I don't mind paying)

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I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the FAET applies to all new complete firearms and receivers that require a Form 4473. If you buy an AR lower online I believe the seller is still required to pay the tax, whether they pass the cost to the buyer or eat the cost. In theory there could still be some tax money being lost, because 11% on a $60 lower is a lot less than 11% on an $800 rifle. But I think there'd be a lot of people that would buy fewer lowers if the tax on them went way up. And I don't necessarily believe those people would buy more complete firearms.

Do you have a link that says receivers are exempt from the FAET? I looked and couldn't find evidence of that.

On those $49 BCGs, are the carriers chromed lined? Some are saying they aren't.

SC

M1key said:

On those $49 BCGs, are the carriers chromed lined? Some are saying they aren't.

SC

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They are nitrided, therefore there is no need to be chrome plated.....

KansasSasquatch said:

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the FAET applies to all new complete firearms and receivers that require a Form 4473. If you buy an AR lower online I believe the seller is still required to pay the tax, whether they pass the cost to the buyer or eat the cost. In theory there could still be some tax money being lost, because 11% on a $60 lower is a lot less than 11% on an $800 rifle. But I think there'd be a lot of people that would buy fewer lowers if the tax on them went way up. And I don't necessarily believe those people would buy more complete firearms.

Do you have a link that says receivers are exempt from the FAET? I looked and couldn't find evidence of that.

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Best of my understanding is that is just one of those loopholes exploited because of the difference in definitions between the TTTB and BATF

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/53.11

Firearms. Any portable weapons, such as rifles, carbines, machine guns, shotguns, or fowling pieces, from which a shot, bullet, or other projectile may be discharged by an explosive.

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A stripped receiver cannot expel anything.. Though the BATF further expands on its definition of what a firearm is.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

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So the Tax applies to functional firearms. i.e. PSA will charge you the Tax for a complete Upper Assembly and Lower Assembly if purchased at the same time. However, if you buy the complete upper today and the complete lower a few days after you will get away without paying it.

So you have one arm of the government saying one thing with the other saying something else.

Not like that doesn't happen very often. /sarcasm

lysanderxiii said:

They are nitrided, therefore there is no need to be chrome plated.....

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The difference in plating and lining has a very different, very important implication for BCG’s.

tarosean said:

Best of my understanding is that is just one of those loopholes exploited because of the difference in definitions between the TTTB and BATF

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/53.11



A stripped receiver cannot expel anything.. Though the BATF further expands on its definition of what a firearm is.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11


So the Tax applies to functional firearms. i.e. PSA will charge you the Tax for a complete Upper Assembly and Lower Assembly if purchased at the same time. However, if you buy the complete upper today and the complete lower a few days after you will get away without paying it.

So you have one arm of the government saying one thing with the other saying something else.

Not like that doesn't happen very often. /sarcasm

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I'm sure they just overlooked that, otherwise they would surely want to collect more money from us gun owners. If Congress and those bureaucrats are ever made aware of it they'll "correct" it immediately.

Varminterror said:

The difference in plating and lining has a very different, very important implication for BCG’s.

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Can you elaborate on what you are alluding to here? Chrome won't take to a bolt carrier that has been nitrided.

Part of the reason I ordered the nitride carrier is out of curiosity more than anything. Once I have the nitrided bolt, I will have one of each, standard chrome lined parkerized milspec BCG, a NiB BCG, and a Nitrided one. Then I can run the heck out of them and see what happens. I know people express very insistent opinions, but so far with the NiB and standard milspec BCG I have, they both work very well, but the parkerized one is just a little bit harder to clean. Wear is about the same and both have worked fine.