Mauser 98 .243 - opinions, please

I feel a lot better about a Mauser action than I do about a Remington 783 (or equivalent)

I’m very late to the party, but have to say the talk of a .243 being risky in an M98 is good colour. It is a completely safe conversion in a quality M98- excluding the wartime push actions that’s a mixed bag.

The M98 has successfully housed the .416 Rigby, and heck the .500 Jeffery was purpose designed to fit in the standard 98. The real issue in a 98 is length, and people cutting away at the feed ramp for clearance, ala Weatherby stories. Trying to shoehorn a .375 or .300 H&H into an M98 means removing some of the ramp, which is what backs the lower bolt lug.

Then the weakened area of the receiver at the feed ramp, being malleable case hardened mild steel, sets back under the pressure from the lower lug. This puts the load almost fully on the top lug now, which is not desirable. Also as you expand the bolt face, to Magnum, or even .500 Jeffery dimensions you increase the possible bolt thrust due to pressure applied over area.

A .243 has absolutely none of these concerns, and represents an extremely minor pressure variation above the 8x57 or .30-06. It is not appropriate in anything but a solid M98, but is an excellent and safe choice therein.

OK, check this out: There were 13 different Mauser actions for sporting rifles. For example I had a Mauser sporter in 10.75x68 it was number eleven (IIRC) on Stoeger's list of actions. This action was made for that cartridge. Different receiver, bolt face and magazine box. Trust me, the Germans to know how to build Mauser actions. Check the pressure numbers of what we call 280 Halger Magnum. It was known by other names elsewhere. The orginal 416 Rigby's were made on commercial magnum Mauser actions. These were not hogged out standard actions. Also, look up data on 7.92 machine gun cartridges that could be fired in an ordinary K98.

Purdey made bolt actions from pre war Mausers chambered in the .404 Jeff

I saw a friend at the range a couple of months ago who has an extensive collection of rifles and seems to always shoot something different ever time he comes out.

That day he was shooting a beautiful custom FN Mauser chambered in 257 Roberts. Since then every time I see him I offer to buy it off him but he’s not selling

Now I want one and I’ve been keeping an eye out for a nice example but everything I see is in rough shape.

I’m very late to the party, but have to say the talk of a .243 being risky in an M98 is good colour. It is a completely safe conversion in a quality M98- excluding the wartime push actions that’s a mixed bag.

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I had a short discussion with a Mechanical Engineer of whom I have a lot of respect (because he is into guns). And I was making my points about unsafe cartridge conversions, and his reply was, "how many rounds you think are going to put down these things?". And we both agree, probably no more than 50. You know, if you are only going to fire 50 rounds downrange out of your expensive customized GEW or K98, then it probably won't come unglued. Probably. And that is why there are so many, like new, gunsmithed old military actioned rifles on the shelf at the local gunstore, because they were never shot more than 50 rounds after they were created.

I looked at the racks of rifles in Petersen's Gun Shop, Central Ave Albuquerque, in March, and there were a bunch of beautiful custom military Mausers, obviously built in the 1950's and 1960's, and a few did not have a scratch on them. Some, the bluing and jeweling was almost new. One that I remember was a real work of gunsmithing art, the builder had real wood work and metal work talent. It was beautiful. There were a couple of conversions in cartridges that I think were absolutely inappropriate for the action, and the beautiful one was one of those, but then, given the low level of owner use, the builders could get away with building dangerous conversions, because the things will rust out before they are shot out.

However, I have absolutely no desire to stick my head behind what I consider a bobby trap, even if it is unlikely to go blow up on the 50th round. So, I would like to know, from those advocating high pressure rounds in old military Mauser actions, just how many rounds have you put down range in one of those actions? What caliber, and how many barrels have you shot out? Or is everything just based on your positive feelings and emotions about old things?

The M98 has successfully housed the .416 Rigby, and heck the .500 Jeffery was purpose designed to fit in the standard 98. The real issue in a 98 is length, and people cutting away at the feed ramp for clearance, ala Weatherby stories. Trying to shoehorn a .375 or .300 H&H into an M98 means removing some of the ramp, which is what backs the lower bolt lug.

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What pressures did the original versions of those cartridges, particularly the 300 H&H and 375 H&N operate at? I am not talking about the 375 H&H base lined by Winchester. Winchester built the M70 action and it was always 4140 steel, so the American version of the cartridge could be pretty high pressure. Now I have read that the H&H cartridge was actually fairly mild in comparison to the American version. Maybe a bit hotter than military ammunition, even if pressures were the same as the 43,000 psia 7mm and 8mm Mauser, the extra diameter of the cartridge would increase bolt thrust. But you know, in a factory new action, built in the 1920's, and one that was never really going to be fired more than 50 rounds, the risk would be acceptable. Then, the risk would be acceptable then to the manufacturer then.

This is before product liability laws. You skeptics need to build a whole bunch of weapons and then deal with the lawsuits that will occur when shooters blow the things up. I talked to the owner of the Panda Stolle actions, he had interesting stories. One of his actions was blown to uselessness by a owner who had created massively over pressure reloads. Then, the guy produced to shoot the same batch of ammunition, not scrapping or disassembling the rounds, and he came across another of his mini nuc's, and blew up another Panda Stolle action. You put out a bunch of rifles on old military actions, and of course, you have no way of knowing the previous useage of the actions, nor the metallurgy of each, and if one of your customers blows one up, and he is the type who won't admit his reloading mistakes, you are going to lose everything if he sues you. You won't be able to prove the action was good. Ignorance is not a good defense, and the opposing consul will show the world, the only thing you have, is faith in the tooth fairy and ignorance.

So, you experts, what was the pressures that Holland and Holland used for their proprietary 300 H&H and 375 H&H cartridges, when they sold one of their new Mausers? I don't know this, but, you do, right? So tell me.

I would like to know, just how many American spec H&H rounds the skeptics have put down range in their own vintage Holland and Holland custom rifles? I just looked at Gun Broker, no Mauser actioned H&H shop rifles, but there is a 450/400 double, starting bid price $24,000. There is a Krieghoff Classic 375 H&H Double, modern rifle, a positive bargain starting at $10,000. There are more H&H double barrel shotguns, would someone please buy me the $60,000 20 bore version?: I would be ever so grateful. Especially as all the advocates must have a gun cabinet full of H&H weapons that they are not using, to be so knowledgeable on the endurance of H&H rifles with high pressure rounds.

I will tell you, an eyeball is worth more than a $60,000 H&H weapon. Your health is worth more than any $60,000 weapon, and I can prove it. Some day, you won't be so healthy, maybe it will be from some stupid accident that you did to yourself, or, maybe it will be just old age. And on that day, ask yourself, how much would you pay, to get your health back. If you have chronic pain, you would pay a million to have the pain go away.

Here's something that I would not do. I was recently in a shop being shown a custom built rifle using a Mauser action. The newest one of those actions was built in 1918. This rifle was now a 300 WSM. Back in the day there was a reminder from the conservatives. Heavy loads were well in into the design margin of safety. This Means being on the edge of having a KB right under your nose.

Mowgli Terry said:

OK, check this out. Check the pressure numbers of what we call 280 Halger Magnum. It was known by other names elsewhere.

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The .280 Halger was based on an overloaded .280 Ross. You could not buy one in England, it would not pass British proof test.

A MILD MAGNUM.
Pressure wise, that is.
Prewar, Phil Sharpe showed the 505 Gibbs with a 525 gr bullet at 2390 fps, slightly over factory, with 105 gr HiVel 2 at 35480 crusher. Another 5 grains only gained 65 fps at the cost of 45375 crusher psi.

Jim Watson said:

You could not buy one in England, it would not pass British proof test.

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I didn't know this about the 280 Halger in GB. Halger has the reputation of being a promoter who made wild claims for his rounds.

Mowgli Terry said:

Halger has the reputation of being a promoter who made wild claims for his rounds.

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Would not have been the first, and will not be the last.

Smoke has a longer lifetime than public memory. Here is a recent German scandal, all forgotten because it was a couple of years ago, and Volkswagen is even more profitable than before the scandal.



According to the ads, Volkswagen engineers were so eco conscious, they sprouted angle wings



Business have a long track record of exaggerating things. Luckily for them, fruit flies have a longer lifetime than public memory.

.243 seems safe enough in a Mauser action if done correctly. But there lies the rub...

Unless you know that father-in-law, it's a homemade sporter of unknown completion and providence with a cheap scope.

That's not necessarily a problem, but for $500 firm + tax? "No way!" is the correct answer.

Seriously, it would be helpful for us to have a picture. Odds are, as pointed out, that this thing is likely a Bubba job. On the other hand, we have some local people that make some pretty nice firearms. I see this people at the local muzzle loading matches that make some really fine very fine traditional guns. I know these rifles are is not the same as bolt action rifles. The local Cabela's has some homemade cartridge customs rifles that would embarrass Bubba.

OP may see this rifle on display so store owner can maintain family peace. There was a person locally who told me about getting 03A3 drill rifles. The barrels were in so tight that the receivers were heated red hot to get them out!

Addendum: Also, don't make fun of the way I take-ya hear! Thanks.

Mowgli Terry said:

There was a person locally who told me about getting 03A3 drill rifles. The barrels were in so tight that the receivers were heated red hot to get them out!

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Bud of mine has an A3 drill rifle receiver. I looked at it, you could not tell that it was not new. No welding tack marks, no scratches. Looked great. He put a barrel on an monitored the headspace. The headspace grew, and he installed a bolt that took up the headspace. Then with more rounds, the headspace grew some more He stopped firing the thing and took it off. The most probably thing was that the welder had used an acetylene touch in one hand and a weld rod in the other, then heated the receiver ring up to get a good weld. Thus annealing the receiver and removing the heat treatment.

This is probably what happened with this drill rifle blow up, the receiver was annealed during welding, the next owner screwed on a new barrel, headspace increased, Kaboom!









This was a National Ordnance M1903A3. In spite of Frank De Haas claiming that these receivers had been given a "clean bill of health", some obviously had the flu. These were cast receivers made into a rifle with GI parts. I had one and it experienced receiver lug set back, and luckily I figured it out and stopped shooting the thing before it hurt me. A different one hurt this individual.





You will always find advocates for inappropriate cartridge conversions of old military rifles, but somehow, they don't seem to be firing them.

Based on materials and time period, M1903A3 receivers are safe to convert to "high pressure" cartridges. M1903A3 receivers were made from 8620 steel, but those military Mausers were not made of alloy steels, they were made out of plain carbon steels, or cheap manganese steel.



I have read about the train rails snapping due to poor metallurgy and I believe this is an example. The locomotive and the rails all came off the bed.

Many years ago one of out local gunsmiths was sharing a story. A customer came in with an fancy engraved Springfield Sporter. His problem appeared to be one of excessive headspace. It turned out the rifle had been engraved in Japan-as the story went. Engraver had annealed the receiver to facilitate engraving. Lugs were setting back in the receiver. I would always preferred to deal with a military barreled action. Salvaging the action odds were on my side that there would be no trouble. That 03-A3 would have slipped by.

@Slamfire

There are mid century FN Brownings made with Mauser actions. In your estimation, is the metallurgy of these rifles suspect too? (The salt/wood corrosion issue I’ve read about on some Safari models not withstanding)

As Nature Boy points out, there have been some magnificent rifles built on Mauser, and Mauser style actions. Such as this double square bridge creation owned by my neighbor. His guns are much nicer than mine.

Back at the dawn of time Chinese made Mauser's came into the country along with FN and German made guns. These were made for or in Nationalist China. On citizen was an engineer with one of the now deceased local smoke stack industries with a hardness tester. I lent him an FN bolt and one from the China made rifle. He came back reporting the Chinese made bolt was satisfactory for its purpose. The FN bolt was case hardened and was extremely tough meaning nothing wrong with that bolt. Those FN actions that did fail had to do with hogged out standard length actions used for magnums or serious overloads.

Offfhand said:

Such as this double square bridge creation

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What would be the estimated price of a double square bridge Mauser action alone today? Also, would you mind sharing who built your rifle. Thanks

Nature Boy said:

@Slamfire

There are mid century FN Brownings made with Mauser actions. In your estimation, is the metallurgy of these rifles suspect too? (The salt/wood corrosion issue I’ve read about on some Safari models not withstanding)

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I don't know what materials they were made from, post WW2 it would be hard to justify using plain carbon or manganese steel in this application, but, I don't know. If the Germans shot enough of the old engineers and management, the new crew could have implemented new and better ideas. If you have not heard : "science advances one funeral at a time" . This is true for most organizations, the old guard has to go away for new ideas to be accepted.

If the action is kept in the original caliber, I don't see a problem. I do have a J.C. Higgins M50 in 30-06






And a FN Deluxe in 270 Win.







The calibers these were offered in are appropriate even for a plain carbon steel or manganese steel action.



If the alloy was changed then a post WW2 could be appropriate for belted magnums, but these pictures of a 264 Win FN factory bolt lug makes me wonder if they were still using plain carbon steels.






But you know, just when you think we are at the end of history in regards to Quality Control and materials, things happens. A Range master at a range I frequent often was very proud of his M700 Remington in 243 Win. He had the thing customized with a F Class type stock, better bolt handle, I think a custom barrel. The Range master said he could hit golf balls at 600 yards with the thing. And then one day he is asking about loads, whether his load was too hot, and how and why his rifle blew up. The load he quoted sounded fine and the rifle was at the gunsmith. Next time I see him I ask him about the thing. His gunsmith had called him over to look at a sectioned lug. Seems the lug had cracked, the headspace had increased, the case sidewall blew, and locked up the rifle. And, the steel in the lug had "bubbles". Lots of bubbles. Oops. The action was purchased Sept 2015, had 4000 rounds through it, and due to substandard materials, a lug had cracked , shifting the bolt head sideways in the receiver on the last round.

You would think that Remington would have better sub contractor control. Guess not. You would think Remington would have incoming inspection that would have screened out defective materials. Guess not. Corporations have out sourced their QC to their vendors, so in 2017 when Kobe Steel is caught shipping substandard steel, it took ten years for someone to notice.

Remington also would do nothing for him because of the extensive modifications he had made, but none of the modifications had anything to do with the metallurgy of the rifle. Well, if you don't know, Corporations act like human psychopaths. They are grandiose, never admit fault and you can only have a master slave relationship with them.

So I guess the lesson is, even though we are in an age of semi conductors, micro processors, CNC machines, parts are still being made of crappy substandard materials.

Because they can.

@Slamfire

I value your perspective as you always back it up with data and facts (well, except for dipping your rounds in brilcream. I haven’t quite warmed to that concept yet )

As I stated earlier. The thought of acquiring a nicely customized commercial FN Mauser his seeped into my brain and take up permanent residence. I want to make sure I’m fully informed before making any purchases.

Does the place in Albuquerque have a web site?

Ron Peterson's does have a web site: http://www.ronpetersonfirearms.com/ I am old enough to remember when Central Ave was Route 66, when the De Anza Motor Lodge was active, and the time before the interstate. Ron Peterson's was on the main drag, and there were a lot of active Route 66 motels. Like the De Anaza Lodge, all that is left of most of those motels are signs. For some reason they knocked the motels down and left the signs.

The Frontier Restaurant is still a going thing, they have the best hot cinnamon buns in the world. Just across from U of NM.



As for the brilcream on cartridges, like the jingle: a little dab will do you. And if you don't like greases or oils, paste wax works. I think paste wax is a thicker version of the ceresin wax dip used on Pedersen rounds.

I'm currently working on a Huskvarna marked 9.3x57 sporter. The action is a finely finished military appearing action. There are no military proof marks but Belgian proofs under the wood. My take on this that the action is fine for what it was intended. We are not graced with knowledge of exactly what happened to those damaged actions. I ,for one. will not fiddle with that vintage FN action in a magnum caliber. The exception would be a SAKO made 300 H&H...if such a thing exist.

This whole post could be summed up with just the Israeli 7.62 NATO converted M98s. The Israelis rebarreled thousands upon thousands of M98s, many wartime push rifles at that, in 7.62x51 NATO. They fired millions of milspec 7.62 NATO ball over the decades they were in service through them, and the 7.62 NATO M98s certainly didn’t develop a reputation as grenades; they’re still shooting I’ve owned them. The Israeli 7.62 wasn’t noted for being mild ammo either.

The original low spec .375 H&H in its 1912 cordite version ran at a pressure of 47,000psi- in cool British weather. That means a potential bolt thrust of 10,900lbs, ignoring proof loads which of course are higher. The .243’s potential bolt thrust is 10,500lbs, though the old H&H is likely to produce substantially more thrust on account of the heavily tapered case and more brass flow. On .416 Rigby M98s, misinformation there many were built on standard 98s not just Magnums (which really aren’t substantially stronger actions than the standard M98 anyhow, just larger)- including the most famous .416 Rigby; Harry Selby’s. These are easily identifiable by the notch in the receiver ring to clear the .416 rounds.

As for how many rounds these standard M98s fired, millions with the Israelis. Harry Selby actually shot the barrel out of his standard, wartime M98 actioned .416 Rigby rifle and had to return it to Rigby for a new barrel after it started keyholing. That replacement barrel continues to serve until this day. For the record to keep this academic the .416 Rigby produces 12,850lbs of potential bolt thrust.

Do I think the M98 is amongst the strongest actions made or something to revere for its strength? No, but it is admirably strong and it does however make a perfectly safe .243. But I’m just a Canadian small time gunsmith who owns some of the old original H&H and British stuff- including one of those overpriced .375s. The internet experts are welcome to send the others to me for quarantine.

Ardent said:

This whole post could be summed up with just the Israeli 7.62 NATO converted M98s. The Israelis rebarreled thousands upon thousands of M98s, many wartime push rifles at that, in 7.62x51 NATO. They fired millions of milspec 7.62 NATO ball over the decades they were in service through them, and the 7.62 NATO M98s certainly didn’t develop a reputation as grenades; they’re still shooting I’ve owned them. The Israeli 7.62 wasn’t noted for being mild ammo either.

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The Israeli's were absolutely desperate to have weapons, they received most of these Mausers around 1948. An interesting story about how the Isreali's got these from Stalin is at this site: https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/rifles/israeli-k98-rifles/ I have one of those Israeli 308 Mausers. It was built by slave labor and won't feed 308 cartridges reliably. The Nazi's kidnapped foreign workers who then sabotaged production. These rifles were not built to last, they were built in a period when entire German armies were disappearing in Russia.

Your story on the Rigby mausers was interesting. You are free to build whatever you want on whatever you can get your hands on. You are free to sell these things to whomever will buy them. In the US there are rather draconian product liability laws and if you have considerable assets, that would make a lawsuit desirable, and if one of your products hurt someone, your liability is everything you own, and everything you will own. I don't know Canadian liability.

Even so, I am free not to buy or shoot things I consider booby traps. I am concerned about my health and no amount of money is worth any one of my body parts.

Hey, millions of happy customers:

You have to admit the satire in the thresholds for life and limb and what constitutes a life risk in your assessment admittedly, we’re talking a .243 M98 not Russian roulette. Not a soul alive would attempt dangerous game hunting if they were aghast at the thought of shooting a .243 M98 before they even got to the field with a much bigger rifle. Let alone all the .375, .404, and .416 Rigby M98s completely shot out of their bores in Africa.

The Israelis were still using original 7.62x51 conversion M98s as sniper rifles into very contemporary history, and the one I owned wasn’t noteworthy for anything. It just worked and judged by the bore had done so for decades and thousands of rounds, with zero setback or uneven bearing in the lugs. If a fellow wants a .243 Mauser 98, it’s safer than crossing the street while drinking coffee. If he doesn’t fortunately we all here live in free countries too and that’s up to the buyer. But one is not silly or on the outside of knowledge for owning or shooting one.

When did the German military start to accept junk actions? Pays to stay away from scrubbed actions.