+P+ now standard-issue?

Goose,

Your brother compared the stopping power of a hot loaded .45ACP round to the "weakling" .38 Special 130 grain Air Force load fired from a 5 shot, small framed, snub nose revolver and "WAS SUPRISED" that the hot loaded .45ACP did better! Your kidding, right?

JIM

Resurrecting an old thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-a-9mm-with-a-3-inch-barrel.533409/page-2

No, it was PGU-12B from 4” S&W M15. I saw some of the chronographed results. 1,175-1,200 from 130gr FMJ. 2” numbers were ~1,000fps.
The PGU-12B would run 1,250fps from his 6” Ruger Sec.-6.
Was accurate too!

Let's go back to the beginning of this thread. It's useful to read the article from American Rilfeman that was linked to. It reminds us that the Army's original Request for Proposal (RFP) was not only for a gun but for ammo:

"While much ink has been spilled on the “kinetic platform” (what most of us would call a “pistol”), when it comes to the adoption of the M17 MHS, there is one aspect that has not received much attention—the ammunition. While the original Request For Proposal (RFP) did not specify a chambering—which led to speculation that the .357 SIG, .40 S&W or, heaven be praised, the .45 ACP, might have been adopted—the Army opted to stick with 9x19 mm NATO. One of the RFP requirements was “increased lethality” relative to the existing platform without changing the chambering or increasing barrel length. What the Army was looking for, among other things, was a 9 mm load whose projectile would penetrate 14" of ballistic gelatin at 50 meters."

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/23/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/

The current FBI protocol calls for 12-18" of penetration through different materials, and 10% ballistic gel at 10 feet. Law enforcement uses these standards in it's selection of duty ammo. The same is true for most shooters looking for quality self defense bullets and loads.

The military often uses 20% ballistic gel in it's testing as does NATO. This is denser than 10% gel. So the military was looking for something with more power than the proven standard self defense ammo for the street and law enforcement duty use in the U.S. So rather than 10 feet they are looking for penetration at 50 meters or 54.68 yards.

I was under the impression that part of the reason so many LEO agencies dropped 10mm and .40 S&W and went back to 9mm, was because female officers and slight male officers could not handle the harsh recoil and accuracy and gun handling suffered. Don't see how +p+ ammo in a 9mm platform is going to be any different. I'm surprised we don't see more new calibers coming around for SD and military usage like we have in handgun hunting.

Someone had previously mentioned the Ill State Police using the 9BPLE +P+ loading for decades...and it worked just fine.

I think that in most full sized service (fighting) pistols will handle +P+ ammo just fine. I know my XDm does. Even with the +P+ ammo I have (mostly Federal and Win), it still doesn't have the recoil of a 40 S&W in the same sized frame.

tipoc said:

The military often uses 20% ballistic gel in it's testing as does NATO. This is denser than 10% gel. So the military was looking for something with more power than the proven standard self defense ammo for the street and law enforcement duty use in the U.S. So rather than 10 feet they are looking for penetration at 50 meters or 54.68 yards.

Click to expand...

This last paragraph, that I wrote, can be misleading. The Army was not looking at meeting all the same standards that the FBI protocol meets. The FBI standards are for penetration of jhp ammo through various barriers (clothing, sheet rock, auto glass, etc.) and then into 10% ballistic gel beginning at 10 feet. These are intended for law enforcement use. The ammo the Army wanted was not required to meet the same standards but wanted penetration to at least the same depth at a greater distance. For this they chose ball ammo.

The U.S. military has had access to very good jhp ammo for both rifles and handguns for a long time.

Typetwelve said:

Someone had previously mentioned the Ill State Police using the 9BPLE +P+ loading for decades...and it worked just fine.

I think that in most full sized service (fighting) pistols will handle +P+ ammo just fine. I know my XDm does. Even with the +P+ ammo I have (mostly Federal and Win), it still doesn't have the recoil of a 40 S&W in the same sized frame.

Click to expand...

I never had much interest in the .40 until the cheap surplus pistols showed up. Bought a Gen4 G22 in like new condition, cheap.
At the range, I found the recoil of the G22 to be close enough to my G17 using +P+, to be negligible.

amd6547 said:

I never had much interest in the .40 until the cheap surplus pistols showed up. Bought a Gen4 G22 in like new condition, cheap.
At the range, I found the recoil of the G22 to be close enough to my G17 using +P+, to be negligible.

Click to expand...

I'll admit it, I'm just not a fan of 40. I really can't 100% put my finger on why, I just do not. My uncle has the same two pistols that I do (a 4.5" XDm and a XD "sub compact") and his are in 40. The difference shooting them is something I consider to be large, I just don't find the guns to be as controllable as my 9mm, even with hot ammo in it.

Again...this is all personal opinion though, take that for what it's worth.

There are two excellent articles on the subject in the latest issue of Dillon's "Blue Press."

BTW, My old department issued 9BPLE +P+

all of my practice reloads for my Beretta, SIG and Glocks were loaded to duplicate that load. All +P+.

My SIG P226 has had close to 12,000 rounds of that stuff with nary a hiccup.

There is no SAAMI standard for +P+. However, I have been told by two different manufacturer's reps that the "industry standard" is set rigidly at 42 KPSI!

cheygriz said:

There are two excellent articles on the subject in the latest issue of Dillon's "Blue Press."

BTW, My old department issued 9BPLE +P+

all of my practice reloads for my Beretta, SIG and Glocks were loaded to duplicate that load. All +P+.

My SIG P226 has had close to 12,000 rounds of that stuff with nary a hiccup.

There is no SAAMI standard for +P+. However, I have been told by two different manufacturer's reps that the "industry standard" is set rigidly at 42 KPSI!

Click to expand...

I have the new issue at home, I've yet to read it.

...and 42K PSI? Wow...that's some hot stuff. Almost any powder site/book I've found won't go much above the mid 30K range. Western Powder does have a 9mm +P section where some of the loads are in the high 30K range.

Typetwelve said:

I have the new issue at home, I've yet to read it.

...and 42K PSI? Wow...that's some hot stuff. Almost any powder site/book I've found won't go much above the mid 30K range. Western Powder does have a 9mm +P section where some of the loads are in the high 30K range.

Click to expand...

For legal reasons, the books will not exceed SAAMI or CIP specs.

But if you look at some of the stuff at a match, loaded to make "power factor" I'll bet it's even higher pressure than 42K.