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+P+ now standard-issue?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by labnoti, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    The DOD blows tons of money on replacing shot out firearms. I have been "voluntold" to do change of command inventory quite a few times. That is a top down inventory of everything a unit has for the incoming commander to sign for. Any firearm that even looks out of spec is tagged and set to higher level maintenance to get fixed or replaced completely. I watched a M4 with a crooked front sight get tagged for demolition rather than just replace the part. But in any case, using +p+ 9mm ammo doesn't bat a single eye when it comes to wear and tear on firearms. So I guess the 9mm NATO +p wasn't wearing the M9 down fast enough.
     
  2. paulsj

    paulsj member

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    Poor souls. I'm blessed to be free civilian that can purchase .40S&W anytime I want.
     
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  3. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

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    As long as the guns the Army is using are designed to handle the pressure these rounds generate this discussion seems rather pointless. Complaining that +p+ has no SAAMI limit is silly since the Army has set the pressure at 39,700.

    39,700 PSI is the standard the Army set. The pressure limit is not undefined!

    If you were in charge of organization going through a 10’s of millions of rounds a year you could tell Winchester they all need to be 25,000 PSI or 40,000 PSI and they’d sell them to you.

    If they’re going to use 9mm why wouldn’t they push the performance of the round to the uppers limits? The guns they are using are of modern design and they have no concern of wearing out a 100 year old Luger, abusing an 80 year old HI Power, cracking an aluminum frame, etc.
     
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  4. sgt127

    sgt127 Member

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    I wonder what came first? The Sig Or the hotter ammo?

    I would like to think the gun and ammo were developed together. And, all the test firing before adoption was with the +P+ ammo...
     
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  5. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    I've only recently become aware of this new type of military 9mm, and have followed this discussion with interest. Just looking at the bullet designs and specs, it doesn't appear that the new ammo would be significantly more effective than NATO ball. Perhaps there is some utility in having a JHP available, but ball ammo that is a little lighter and faster, with a small flat point, not so much. And if a 147 JHP is desired, I guess it would just be too cost effective to buy some type of currently available, off the shelf, ammunition. I mean Walmart could probably supply the military with a few zillion rounds of JHP at a bargain price;)

    As to concerns about the pressure the new ammo produces, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I say this because I have used many thousands of rounds of NATO, +P, +P+, IMI black-tip carbine, equivalent reloads, etc, in a variety of firearms without issue.....ymmv
     
  6. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    Just to maybe add some clarity...

    SAMMI is the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, Inc. it was founded in 1926 at the request of the Federal Government as a voluntary association of commercial gun and ammo manufacturers that could set standards for the manufacturer of guns and ammo. Membership in SAMMI is voluntary.
    Here is a link to their website and there is a wealth of useful information there:

    https://saami.org/

    SAMMI sets standards for what is standard pressure for every type of ammo produced and what is +P. This sets an upper limit on pressure. If an ammo maker want to sell ammo and label it standard or +P on the commercial market they abide by SAMMI standards in making it. Members of SAMMI agree to those designations. If a manufacturer is not a member of SAMMI then they can do what they want. There are no standards set on +P+ ammo for example. As there is officially no SAMMI designation for +P+.

    SAMMI also sets the dimensions for cartridges and more. If you buy a box of 44 Spl. then it will be compatible with other ammo in the same cartridge for any given gun.

    Now SAMMI has nothing to do with the military. The army can get a contract with Winchester for any pressure that it wants and label it what it wants.

    The army issues standard issue ammo to all it's troops just the same as they issue standard issue underwear and standard issue helmets. That has nothing to do with standard pressure ammo as set by SAMMI.
     
  7. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    ^ that’s it, +P+ is just over +P all the way to “kaboom”.
     
  8. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I know when the IL State Police started using the 9mm +P+ ammo was long enough ago that it predated the widespread acceptance of the .40 S&W.
     
  9. Jessesky

    Jessesky Member

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    My Luger, even at 101 years old likes it hot. The original loading was 124gr @1200fps. Today this is the same as 124gr+p loads. This could be because of the toggle action needing more force, but I’d also speculate to ensure reliability. Interesting how the original loading became the “non standard magnum” loading today.
     
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  10. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Military does not use HP ammo as a general rule.
     
  11. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    herrwalther, Yes I was in the military, and understand that the military does not use HP ammo as a general rule. My factitious response was meant to allude to the fact that there is plenty of JHP ammo available off the shelf, even at WallyWorld. But, the Army apparently felt the need to develop their own special 147 grain JHP "Special Purpose" roundo_O
     
  12. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Again,
    to reiterate;
    SAAMI isn’t the only game (standard) in town.
    The European CIP standard is 40,000psi. Or, just about what UNCLE SAM has spec’d His ammo at. Same thing the Russians are using. (Check out 7N21 ammo).
    Guess what? Uncle Sams ammo has to work in NATO’s guns too.
    So, no surprise...
    What I do applaud is going back (again) to a truncated Flat-nose bullet. 110yrs after the Germans did...
    And, the French (again) are probably not happy!
     
  13. golden

    golden Member

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    Goose,

    The Air Force had looked at buying truncated cone ammo and it did not show any improvement in stopping power that I ever heard of. The wide meplat bullets used by hunters are completely different from truncated cone full metal jacket ammo. Winchester has used them on its white box ammo for .32ACP and .380ACP. It was the most jam prone ammo in those 2 calibers that I ever used.

    Jim
     
  14. golden

    golden Member

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    ROCK,

    The military uses the 147 grain jhp ammo for silenced (suppressed) weapons or at least it did when the H&K MP5 was the chosen gun of special operations units.

    The 147 grain 9m.m. load got a huge load of hype when used by special operations units and had 10 one shot stops in actual field use. This was after the FBI debacle in Miami, where 8 agents shot it out with 2 bad guys and did very badly. The FBI decided all the blame would fall on one bullet, a 9m.m. Silvertip that failed to stop one of the killers. OK, except many other departments had used this ammo with good results.
    So the FBI began pushing the "DEEP PENETRATING", heavy 9 m.m. round. Then the 10m.m. and then they adopted the .40 S&W. Now they are going back to the 9m.m., saying bullets are now better.
    The problem is that the original round was "NON EXPANDING"!. The hollow point was there to move the center of gravity and improve accuracy as those 10 shots were mostly, if not all head shots. This is a technique used for making some target bullets. The 147 grain load did not expand at all and was not designed to.

    Jim
     
  15. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Seems many weapon choices are made by congress, whose members are lobbied to death. I wouldn’t be surprised if changing ammo is also a move by lobbyists to obsolete current ammo and make new ammo sales.

    As far as the military having special ammo, I’ll refer you back to lobbying. Why use standard products when if you can get the military to purchase something made to their specs, you can charge so much more for it.
     
  16. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    Slightly OT... today I got to shoot a magazine full of 9x25 Dillon. It was pretty feisty. :)
     
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  17. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I have always thought the military did not follow commercial and SAAMI specs. They set the specs to what they need to achieve the results necessary in the field for everything to work as intended. Much of the ammo of all types used by the military has been hotter than commercial ammo. I would not call it +P+ because it is just the normal military ammo.
     
  18. cheygriz

    cheygriz member

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    I've read in several industry publicstions over the years that +P+ is considered by the industry to be 42K PSI.

    Since +P+ was developed for the Illinois State Police for use in modern weapons, this would make sense.

    If you chronograph +P+ rounds of equal weight from the big three, they are close enough in velocity that the industry very obviously has it's own standard whether SAAMI recognizes it or not.

    I've used thousands of +P+ rounds in Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, etc with no ill effects whatsoever.

    I think it's long past time for SAAMI to recognize a standard for 9mm +P+. And possibly .38 Special and .45 ACP +P+ as well.
     
  19. js8588

    js8588 Member

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    Sig quality control is going to make this fun to watch.
     
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  20. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    The .38 Special +P+ = .357 Magnum, no? I would think so.

    IMO this obsession with velocity is getting out of hand. Cartridges are what they are and if you want more, change cartridge.

    The high velocity .38 Special is the .357 Magnum. The high velocity .357 Magnum is the .357 Maximum.

    9 x 19mm - 9 x 21mm - 9 x 23mm

    45 ACP - 45 Super - 45 Roland

    45 Colt - 454 Casull - 460 Magnum

    Cartridge cases are developed to stand up to the pressures normally associated with that cartridge. It's not wise IMO to overstress cases, catastrophic failures can result. I'm not saying many cases can not handle the pressures but how are we to know which are safe and which are not?

    I just think this obsession with velocity much of the time is counterproductive.
     
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  21. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I don't think that really fits. 9 x 21 is generally loaded the same as 9 x 19, including overall length. There's no extra velocity. The case is just longer to comply with some nation's laws that prevent civilian ownership/use of "military" ammo or guns chambered in "military" cartridges. 9 x 19 is invariably included in the definition of "military" chamberings. No military uses 9 x 21... thus, it's legal.
     
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  22. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    As far as I can tell, there's no agreement by the industry. I know that Federal loads at least one +P+ loading right to the maximum +P pressure standard, apparently believing that since it's right on the limit they can't guarantee that any particular round will be under the limit. Whatever their reason, that's clearly a lot less than 42 Kpsi.
     
  23. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    golden;
    The Airforce DID go to a truncated Conical bullet.
    In ~ 1979 the Airforce adopted a 230gr FMJ-TC bullet, along with an in-house custom M1911 for the OSI. (Was progenitor of the Colt Officers Model, and Detonics M1911). My older brother was an OSI agent, and was issued one, along with the ammo. My brother in fact analyzed the Airforce data on OSI shoots worldwide (most were/are still classified) and compared to the previous issues M36 S&W revolver with 130gr FMJ (PGU88-A) ammo, the results were astounding (his words). He also kept up with the accidental discharges by personnel.... not pretty!
    Hornady has only recently discontinued the bullet. They loaded the ammo under contract for the Airforce. It was HOT, compared to standard ball. (900+fps from 5”bbl. over 800fps from 3.5” bbl). My brother said it was a “hand full” to qualify with, but reassuring when things got “Western” as he put it...

    In fact in 1984, when the Military adopted the M92 Beretta, the spec’d Ammo was a 124gr FMJ- TC FP. However, due to several of the NATO issue SMG’s failing to feed/function with the ammo/design, the decision was to revert to the RN-FMJ. The early German DWM 9mm ammo was a 123gr TC-FMJ, but the French, experiencing a higher mortality rate due to wounding characteristics of the round allegedly started executing any Germans found possessing the ammo. Hence, Germany withdrew the ammo to appease the French.

    So, I think it’s a settled issue that the TC-FMJ is a superior design as regards wound characteristics. However, I’m not familiar with any actual statistical analysis. YouTube has gelatin penetration tests of RMR TC bullets on YouTube productions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  24. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Spain's Santa Barbra Arsenal also produced 124 gr. TC-FMJ ammo, and it was hot enough to cycle SMG's.
     
  25. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Problem is with fp’s hanging/catching on the feed ramps. UZI is one, I’m told...
     
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