They are normally retained at the local business as these are not a background check sent to the FBI. Don't know what happens though if you buy multiple handguns or are in the special zone for mag loading rifles.
80% lower logic?
- Thread starter mshootnit
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Speedo66
Member
It's like those programs where if you are convicted of a crime, but keep clean or do community service, etc., your record gets purged.
Same if you are found not guilty, your fingerprints are supposed to be returned and no record kept.
LOL, does anybody really believe that?
Same if you are found not guilty, your fingerprints are supposed to be returned and no record kept.
LOL, does anybody really believe that?
dogtown tom
Member
Absolute hogwash.
You either don't know what the Form 4473 actually is or have no earthly idea what real "de facto" registration really is.
Most likely both.
dogtown tom
Member
More hogwash.
There is no online version of the Form 4473.
Where do you people get this stuff?
dogtown tom
Member
You are confusing the Form 4473 (Record of Firearm Transaction) with the FBI NICS background check.
The dealer keeps the Form 4473 for twenty years, then he can destroy them. If he goes out of business before his 4473's reach age twenty, he sends them to ATF.
The results of FBI NICS checks that are "proceeds" are purged at the end of the NICS business day (midnight Central time). Transactions that are delayed are not purged until the status changes to a "proceed". NICS denials are kept open and active.
A Form 4473 merely is a record of a transaction between a licensed dealer and buyer/transferee. It does not "register" anything to that buyer/transferee. The buyer can gift/sell/trade that firearm five minutes after leaving the gun store and no federal law requires notifying anyone about that gift/trade/sale. Under true "registration, every change pf possession requires notification or permission of that gift/sale/trade.
And again, the Form 4473 is not necessarily permanent. After twenty years the dealer can shred or burn that form.
BTW, Federal law prohibits maintaining a database or registration of Title I firearms. Only Title II firearms are "registered" .......machine guns/SBR/SBS/AOW/DD/Silencers.
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dogtown tom
Member
See Ares Armor seizures from a couple of years ago.
Neo-Luddite
Member
If we let it go THIS FAR, my personal plan is as many mag dumps in the general direction of my oppressors as I can accomplish. My point being, those doing the searching wouldn't need to give a damn about what percentage a weapon was 'finished' as those laws would no longer matter and they would be doing whatever they wished with whomever they wished. Or to paraphrase the old truism, when the time comes you are thinking of hiding your guns it is surely time you need them in hand.
AlexanderA
Member
Buy your 80% receiver anonymously with cash at a gun show. 100% legal, and 100% untraceable. Anything else is just being stupid.
AlexanderA
Member
Hold your horses. The Form 4473 can establish who the retail buyer of a gun is. Thereafter, agents can go to that buyer and determine if he still has the gun. If not, they are going to ask for a reasonable explanation. "Lost it in a tragic boating accident" is not going to cut it. LE is not stupid. Depending on how hard-assed they want to be, they can make life very difficult for that person.
I would appreciate it if you would be a little more respectful.
DustyGmt
Member
Just out of curiosity. Why would dealers/ATF require a 20 year record of transaction? That seems like a lengthy span of time....
I'm glad there isnt a registry and that the guv doesnt have a serialized database so nobody really knows who has what but still a 20 year record of transaction seems like a long time. I suppose the only way somebody could turn up at your door with an inquiry about any firearms would be if your gun was used/left at a crime or you became a murder suspect then they could sniff out the gun you purchased. But no "database" that could be used for mass confiscation efforts. That's good.
I'm glad there isnt a registry and that the guv doesnt have a serialized database so nobody really knows who has what but still a 20 year record of transaction seems like a long time. I suppose the only way somebody could turn up at your door with an inquiry about any firearms would be if your gun was used/left at a crime or you became a murder suspect then they could sniff out the gun you purchased. But no "database" that could be used for mass confiscation efforts. That's good.
Many FFL's are using computerized form 4473's. Just filled out one the other day. Others still use the old fashioned bound volume.More hogwash.
There is no online version of the Form 4473.
Where do you people get this stuff?
The idea is that the sales record could be consulted to determine in an investigation whether or not a particular person had access or owned a firearm connected to a crime. I suppose it is half a loaf for the law enforcement crowd as some would probably like to have all of that information on computer. In this case, those supporting privacy rights made the legislation where the FFL retains the records and may chuck them after twenty or if they go out of business in the interim, they ship the records to Martinsburg, WVA warehouse owned by the ATF. There is a reason that the ATF wants you to print your name and information as OCR recognition on the paper 4473 because recognition is much higher that way.
dogtown tom
Member
No sir. When you post nonsense you should expect to be called on it. You've been a member here long enough to know better.
Only the first retail buyer from the original FFL. If the firearm is subsequently sold/traded/gifted and even eventually resold at another licensed dealer there is no paper trail (registration). But the Form 4473 DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with establishing who is the current owner of the firearm.
Thinking that's "registration" is laughable.
Horsehockey.
I've averaged 4-8 firearm traces per year, ones where the ATF National Tracing Center have requested a copy of the original Form 4473. In ten years that's 40+ customers.
NOT ONE SINGLE TIME has ATF made "life very difficult for that person"........think why that may be.
First, they didn't tell the ATF "boating accident" or "dog ate my homework", they told the truth......that they sold the gun as permitted under federal and state law.
Whether LE is or is not stupid is irrelevant, the fact remains there is no record-keeping requirement under federal or Texas law for the private sale/trade/gift of a firearm.
Second, LE has to ....wait for it......FOLLOW THE LAW. It is perfectly legal under federal law to sell/trade/gift a firearm as often as you desire as long as you abide by federal law. ATF or your local PD might be disappointed that you have no information on who bought your gun ten years ago.......but TOUGH LUCK. If ATF or local LE "makes life very difficult", that may be because you violated a state law or federal law or heck, your fingerprints are on the crime gun.
Don't post conspiracy theories and you'll get plenty of respect. Your assertion that a Form 4473 is de facto registration is not only erroneous, but shows a complete and total ignorance of what actual firearm registration is. Want to know what that is? Ask any of our forum members who come from states where every transfer is recorded and every transfer requires another NICS check. You couldn't gift Granddads 1911 without following state law and getting state permission.
As gun guys we get aggravated when politicians refer to semi automatics as machine guns, when someone calls a magazine a high capacity clip, when the media assumes every semiautomatic rifle is an assault rifle or when politicians spout nonsense that background checks and closing the gun show loophole will fix everything.
Don't be like politicians.
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dogtown tom
Member
Don't confuse the form filling software "e4473" with what i was responding to.
stillquietvoice wrote:"Recently 4473 form are being done online"
I'll repeat, there IS NOT AN "online" Form 4473. The e4473 is merely form filling software and does not connect to ATF.
DustyGmt
Member
So if the dealer goes out of business, sends all 4473's to the ATF, do they destroy them at the 20 year mark. Sorry if I'm beating this to death but I really would like to know....
dogtown tom
Member
Dealers may destroy Form 4473's after they reach twenty years.
He would obviously not destroy anything younger than 20 years.
When a licensee discontinues business, he must send his 4473's (that are not yet 20 years old) and his bound books to ATF. (where ATF will store them in shipping containers in a parking lot)
ATF does not destroy them at any point.
jmorris
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If having one were illegal...then having one would be illegal. Doesn’t matter how you acquired it, possession is the crime.
I suppose having an 80% one wouldn’t be a firearm because it’s not one now. Might go the direction of intent like they do with machinegun parts though.
They want all firearms registered so they know where they are. As of now, one could simply say “I sold it.”, end of story.
Jim Watson
Member
It wouldn't take much to get some Hindoos on worker visas to start keypunching those forms. Until OCR gets better.
Sistema1927
Member
For government to seize all of the [fill in the blanks] would require that government be efficient.
Had any dealings with the VA, IRS, or state motor vehicle folks lately?
Had any dealings with the VA, IRS, or state motor vehicle folks lately?
I, too, have filled out an electronic 4473. If it's not 'online,' then how is the NICS check being done? I don't recall the salesman making a phone call to complete the check, which admittedly may be a recollection problem. If no call is being made, though, then the form must be transmitted electronically.
I'm not but I've seen it argued that by automating this form, it makes it easier to put into a database in the future if Congress changes the law.
dogtown tom
Member
The FBI NICS check DOES have an online version, but there is absolutely no online Form 4473 and the 4473 is not transmitted to NICS ever. The FBI NICS doesn't care about the firearm, but the buyer.
Remember, information given to the FBI NICS is only the buyer/transfees descriptive information and handgun/long gun/ other...............FBI NICS doesn't get any other information on the firearm. No manufacturers name, no model name, no serial#, no caliber and not even specifics such as revolver or pistol, rifle or shotgun. They aren't even told how many guns you are buying that day.
AlexanderA
Member
"Constructive intent" is not a thing. "Constructive possession" is. If all the parts are under the control of one person, he can be charged with having an illegal machine gun, regardless of his "intention." (That's assuming it is not registered, etc.)
dogtown tom
Member
Well if ATF uses the same software geniuses that are responsible for eForms we really have nothing to fear.
Going on five years and they still don't have Form 4's running.
jmorris
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That’s the word I was looking for and if they were all banned and illegal an 80% one would not be a good thing to have around. Certainly not a completed one.
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