Length gauge post from another board

Let’s take a poll shall we.

If an object is in a different location then previously located then it must have moved or been moved.

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I think he is somehow getting caught up on “same shoulder”. Using his logic, one would argue that a surfer is not riding the “same wave” because they are passing over many different molecules in their ride.

His logic would also say if you had a goal post outlined in chalk and you wanted to move the goal posts so you took up the chalk and put down some more where you wanted them to be, you didn’t actually move the goal post, rather eliminated one set and created new ones. In order to really move the goal posts, you would need to keep every grain of chalk in the same position relative to one another in transferring their relative position....perhaps say you didn’t move any posts, at all as there were no vertical upright timber or metal involved at all...

There are people out there that enjoy that kind of argument, I’d rather talk religion or politics than argue semantics with someone that knows enough to understand what others are talking about, not to mention common language universally accepted. That said, I don’t even get bent out of shape when people refer to a magazine as a clip, even if it’s Remington...

jmorris said:

if you had a goal post outlined in chalk and you wanted to move the goal posts

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Interestingly, I think this to be the exact case...

Walkalong said:

Correct, but you can use the same method to set up a sizer. FL size the case a tiny bit at a time until the bolt drops free. If you had a big die adjustment when it does, you'll have to go back and play with the die between those two adjustments.

Another method is to fire the case in your chamber and size to keep the shoulder there.

Another is to hammer a case three times with full loads so it is close to full chamber size and size to move the shoulder .002.

In my post above where I showed measuring the shoulder I fired it twice and sized to move the shoulder .001.

Pick your poison.

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You did good..
Custom actions are so nice I hope to own one in the future.
When my ship comes in

JCSC said:

Whew, that one got lengthy.

I appreciate the initial comments. I said I was a rookie, but I do know how to size my brass and make it fit and function properly in a given chamber, without oversizing and destroying it.

The comment about “shooters at the highest precision level” was not in reference to any person in particular. I have no clue what a professional bench rest shooter does to his loads and I thought I may have been reading something that I had never encountered before.

I think my question about the dimension from the shoulder to Ogive was cleared up by varminterror, which he mentioned that this is measured indirectly, by knowing your BTO and placing your shoulder in the correct location.

Thanks JC

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Glad you didn't get scared away. Senseless arguments like this don't happen often here.
There is some good info to be taken from some of FGuffeys's posts even if he's trying to disguise it. The others post in a much easier to understand manner.

I know I am new at this but my eyes are still glazed over after reading all this three times.

I hope that it is not crucial that I understand what has been said in this thread.

gifbohane said:

I know I am new at this but my eyes are still glazed over after reading all this three times.

I hope that it is not crucial that I understand what has been said in this thread.

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Nope. Mostly zig or zag

gifbohane said:

I hope that it is not crucial that I understand what has been said in this thread.

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It’s not.

South Prairie Jim said:

Let’s take a poll shall we.

If an object is in a different location then previously located then it must have moved or been moved.
Check one...
Yes
No

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I say yes because the length of the case from the datum to the case head changed. And then there is the datum, The datum on the shoulder before firing is not the same datum the reloaders finishes with. I accept the fact I am going to loose most of your on this one but if you are able to move the shoulder back when sizing fire forming is out the window. And then there is sizing if you are able to move the shoulder back how does the case get longer when sizing? My cases get shorter from the end of the neck to the case head when firing and longer from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

If a reloaders can get past the ideal he can move the shoulder back there is a remote chance he can begin to understand do-nuts. The reason? It is not possible to explain do-nuts without knowing where they come from; and if you believe you can move the shoulder back you believe donuts come from nowhere.

F. Guffey

Reloaders will be assimilated, resistance is futile.

Its all a mystery. Only the die knows.

Walkalong said:

So that is your way of saying the shoulder moved, base to datum is shorter? same thing.

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No, I have already said it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support, I have already said the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with. I said I have scribed a line at the case body/shoulder juncture, I have no clue what you guys are going to call a scribed line, I call the scribed line as an artifact. I describe the old shoulder as an artifact that would include the shoulder/neck juncture.

If I could move the shoulder back like your guys can my artifacts would not move.

And I said I can not move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has case body support, I said I could shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but the new shoulder is not the same shoulder I started with; because part of the case body became part of the shoulder and part of the shou8lder became part of the neck.

F. Guffey

Definitely hard to move a shoulder with full body support, I’ve tried everything

fguffey said:

No, I have already said it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support, I have already said the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with. I said I have scribed a line at the case body/shoulder juncture, I have no clue what you guys are going to call a scribed line, I call the scribed line as an artifact. I describe the old shoulder as an artifact that would include the shoulder/neck juncture.

If I could move the shoulder back like your guys can my artifacts would not move.

And I said I can not move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has case body support, I said I could shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but the new shoulder is not the same shoulder I started with; because part of the case body became part of the shoulder and part of the shou8lder became part of the neck.

F. Guffey

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Looks like we are back to molecular engineering again....

fguffey said:

No, I have already said it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support, I have already said the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with. I said I have scribed a line at the case body/shoulder juncture, I have no clue what you guys are going to call a scribed line, I call the scribed line as an artifact. I describe the old shoulder as an artifact that would include the shoulder/neck juncture.

If I could move the shoulder back like your guys can my artifacts would not move.

And I said I can not move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has case body support, I said I could shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but the new shoulder is not the same shoulder I started with; because part of the case body became part of the shoulder and part of the shou8lder became part of the neck.

F. Guffey

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can you move the datum line back, in respect to the case head, with the case body support die?

murf

murf said:

can you move the datum line back, in respect to the case head, with the case body support die?

murf

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Murf, vague to most but I have said I do not use case friendly datums. I have insisted the Hornady comparator is not an accurate tool because they make their comparator with a datum that has a radius; a radius is case friendly.

I make datums that have a sharp edge meaning the sharp edge is not case friendly. That is something like an interference fit between two angles, some use lapping compound, I use a 1 degree difference to find the contact point.

The datum does not move back, the shoulder does not move back, if I scribe a datum on the case shoulder the scribed line becomes an artifact of the old shoulder, again my new shoulder gets a new datum.

The datum I start with is not the same datum I finish with.

F. Guffey

Walkalong said:

Semantics, and not helpful to posters trying to learn.

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To get to that point you have to ignore too much information.. If I scribe the shoulder or case body/shoulder juncture before sizing the scribed lines do not move back. If as you believe the shoulder can be move back you should be able to move the scribed lines back.

F. Guffey

If you read the post of Mr. Guffey there is much to learn.
J

PWC said:

Looks like we are back to molecular engineering again....

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You claim you are a reloader, in my opinion you should know something about sizing cases, you should know what happens to the case when sized. I do not believe 'it is so because someone says it is so'.

Have you ever tried to move the shoulder back with a die that did not have case body support? I have moved case shoulder back with a die that did not have case body support, When finished the cases looked like accordions, for those that have worked on Volkswagens, the cases had taken on the appearance of a Volkswagen thermostat complete with bellows.

F. Guffey

It is not possible to explain do-nuts without knowing where they come from; and if you believe you can move the shoulder back you believe donuts come from nowhere.

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They can be created two ways, one cause is material from the shoulder moving up into the neck area from firing and sizing. Each time you fire the pressure stretches the case when you size you are moving the shoulder back, forcing the material up into the neck.

The other way is to turn without reaching the shoulder, when you fire and pressure inside the case blows it out making the excess material outside the case turn into excess material inside the case.

Do you call the material that makes up a donut a shoulder that can’t be moved?

Seems like your getting caught up on material in a case vs a feature.

If I take a bottleneck case and fire it in a chamber that is not, I will wind up with a case with no shoulder, despite the fact that the material that made up the shoulder is still there.

jmorris said:

I’d rather talk religion or politics than argue semantics with someone that knows enough to understand what others are talking about, not to mention common language universally accepted. That said, I don’t even get bent out of shape when people refer to a magazine as a clip,

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The issue there is that there is a proper word to use , magazine . How ever we as reloaders often come across things that have yet been identified by official entities . We none the less we still need to reference yet to be identified "things" . Sizing a case where the shoulder has been relocated less then if FL sized has no official definition therefore we as a community over time get to choose what that is called ( bumping the shoulder ) . This is not like the mag / clip debate , in that case they each have a word and definition associated with them so it's reasonable to expect people who know the correct wording to use it .

The great thing about language is it's ever evolving . Based on some reloaders views though we should not use the word magazine because that was not it's original definition . Can we "fire" a gun ? I think not because that is not what fire originally meant !

Just so we all understand how words change meaning over time . I heard the best/worst example of this the other day

VEGAN SUSHI

In case you didn't hear it , I JUST DROPPED THE MIKE !

fguffey said:

Murf, vague to most but I have said I do not use case friendly datums. I have insisted the Hornady comparator is not an accurate tool because they make their comparator with a datum that has a radius; a radius is case friendly.

I make datums that have a sharp edge meaning the sharp edge is not case friendly. That is something like an interference fit between two angles, some use lapping compound, I use a 1 degree difference to find the contact point.

The datum does not move back, the shoulder does not move back, if I scribe a datum on the case shoulder the scribed line becomes an artifact of the old shoulder, again my new shoulder gets a new datum.

The datum I start with is not the same datum I finish with.

F. Guffey

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new shoulder, new datum, got it.

murf

^^^
Simple as a Pimple
What a awesome day it’s been
J

The issue there is that there is a proper word to use , magazine .

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As long as you don’t have a Remington magazine, er clip.