Length gauge post from another board
- Thread starter JCSC
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30 degree insert for 6 or 6.5 Creed case shoulders.
Or a cheap home made "shoulder bump gauge" like this for 300 BLK. No moving parts, hard to screw up.
That is because it has moved in relationship to the base, which is why it is universally talked about as moving or bumping the shoulder back.
But you would rather be vague to make people think, or at least that is what you told me about some of your cryptic posts. I have asked you instead to be clear and helpful to posters, which you have chosen not to do.
My full length sizing dies support the case body. My seater crimp die does not support the case body. If I should apply too much crimp the mouth of the case will lock to the bullet while it is moving/being seated; without case body support the shoulder will move. With the absence of case body support the case at the shoulder/case body juncture will expand below the juncture.
The expansion of the case below the juncture can cause difficult when chambering a round. Again, I can not move the case shoulder back because my dies have case body support.
F. Guffey
. Again I have had cases with new shoulder/case body junctures that were .127" from the scribed line. MY shoulders did not move, they became something else like part of the neck and or case body. I started with one shoulder and finished with another.
F. Guffey
I asked you to explain 'something' about determining the distance from the bolt face to the beginning of the rifling's. If you do not know a good answer would be "I do not know" or just say nothing. My methods and or techniques are not the only way but my methods and or techniques eliminate all the problems described by the OP.
F. Guffey
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
And yet you have, literally, explained nothing.
I sure hope the OP hasn't been scared off, and has been helped.
Agreed.
The Hornady tool is fine for what it is, @JCSC. It will find the distance from the shoulder to the rifling in the chamber. Any variations from the angle of the modified case’s shoulder to the shoulders of his sized cases could lead to very slight differences, which could be different than the actual chamber if you aren’t using chamber matched dies. To keep from sticking bullets in the lands it should work fine.
jmorris
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I can take a case and pick a datum to measure off the shoulder and measure to get a known reference dimension.
If I don’t like that dimension for whatever reason, I can lower the die or put a shim between the bottom of the case and top of the shell holder, say .003” and run it back into the size die and get this.
I suppose some people might not know front, back, up or down but most all would agree the distance from the datum on the shoulder to the bottom of the case head became shorter, what caused the difference in length?
A different shoulder location?
If we can agree that the shoulder is in a different spot, on the exact same case and there are not two of them, most of us would say the shoulder was moved.
However, I concede not 100% but it’s not confusing unless you try to make it so.
If I don’t like that dimension for whatever reason, I can lower the die or put a shim between the bottom of the case and top of the shell holder, say .003” and run it back into the size die and get this.
I suppose some people might not know front, back, up or down but most all would agree the distance from the datum on the shoulder to the bottom of the case head became shorter, what caused the difference in length?
A different shoulder location?
If we can agree that the shoulder is in a different spot, on the exact same case and there are not two of them, most of us would say the shoulder was moved.
However, I concede not 100% but it’s not confusing unless you try to make it so.
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Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
Was it the shoulder brass, like a conveyor belt? Was it the small portion near the head where separations occur? Was it the entire area of the sizing die evenly?
Was it a little of everything?
Who cares as long as it fits now...
(I should have said "the needle".)
Was it a little of everything?
Who cares as long as it fits now...
(I should have said "the needle".
)We get it.
The part that moves is the part where the head separates, (in addition to other parts that only move slightly...
NO you do not get it. The part that moves is not where the head separates. could say I can not believe a little bit of information could be so overwhelming on so many reloaders; I could say that but I feel I should be honest. A number of experts believed a long chamber caused case head separation. One very famous expert increased the length of his chamber by .060", he loaded a minimum length/full length sized in the chamber, pulled the trigger and was surprised his did not suffer case head separation. He did not know his the shoulder of his case did not move but did notice the length of the case increased by .065" from the case head to the shoulder/datum. His case did not stretch and the shoulder did not move.
Same thing, I chambered 2 Mausers to 8mm06 from 8nn57. I chambered 8mm57 ammo in one of the rifles and then pulled the trigger. My cases increased in length from the shoulder to the case head by .127", before pulling the trigger I was told I had excessive head space and if I fired a 8mm57 round in the chamber the case would suffer case head separation. fired case was ejected with the hint of a neck.
Again, the case head did not separated from the case body, the area between the case head and case body did not stretch.
F. Guffey
PSI? Again I have tension gages, all of my tension gages measure in pounds, none of my gages measure in tensions and pounds' and there is no conversion from pounds to tensions.
I was 14 when I used the first tension gage. I was working on the inside floor of a double drilling rig. I noticed this large gage snapping back and forth with a violent motion; I aske the driller what it was. He said it was tension gage. So I asked "How many tension does it read?" They all had a laugh and then explained it measured in pounds, thousands of pounds.
And I have strain gages, one of them goes up to 1,000 pounds.
F. Guffey.
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
Well, that was clear as mud. Let’s see you get it back in the neck with sizing it...
Thanks though.
Have a nice evening.
Thanks though.
Have a nice evening.
Or the digital way.The Dial!
A 6 Creed case before sizing with a FL bushing style sizer.
A 6 Creed case after sizing with a FL bushing style sizer.
Shoulder moved .001.
Agreed.
PWC
Member
Well, I don't think I need to explain anything to you, since you already know an answer (note I said AN answer, not THE answer). You freely give advice, some helpful, some confusing, as noted in this thread. If we have neen reloading for awhile, some we on the forum take, or modify for our own use.
JFrank
Member
No one I know, but I don't know most of them.
I don't understand what you are asking here, but here is some basic advise.
Size brass to fit the chamber. Fire on case with full loads three times in the gun, measure where the shoulder is in reference to the base, set up the sizer to move it back .001 to .002.
Or use this method of finding the spot where the seated bullet touches the lands to set up your sizer. Then use this method to find where your bullet touches the lands. Into the lands or jumping some is another long debate. For anything but Benchrest i don't want to be into the lands, and never "just touching", so 99% of the time we want a little jump.
How to find the lands or set up a sizer.
So now you have FL sized brass that doesn't have a lot of slop in your chamber (No excess head clearance), and your bullet seated to jump, oh say, .020ish. I am jumping .010 to .015 in my dasher.
ish = Hard to get it perfect, and if anyone thinks they are always getting the same jump to the nearest .001 every time, I have some swamp land to sell them, too many variables.
I assume .02 was a typo, if you move a shoulder back .02 you will have a case separation. If it is even possible to move it that much. .002 is a common suggestion.
And I wish fguffey could make up his mind if he can move a shoulder or not, or measure to it and move it the amount he wants. If he isn't moving the shoulder, maybe he is moving the case head. Something is changing when he sizes brass.
Hope this is helpful.
As for the video-
This is the Alex Wheeler method of finding the touch point. Alex is a very smart guy and probably the top long range rifle (accuracy smith) in the country at this time. It works extremely well for those with skills/confidence to remove the extractor and firing pin, Savage bolts prove a touch more difficult IMO .
Finding the lands , however a reloader accomplishes this is only an arbitrary number for reference only , a starting point for seating tests in my case. Unless something has changed finding the lands has nothing- edit ( little) to do with sizing a case.
More to follow
J
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JFrank
Member
Well Gents
Here it is in a nutshell, explained very carefully, the trick/ question for the reloader is to read and understand or wait to type their rebuttal.
Welcome back Mr. Guffey
J
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PWC
Member
My response was not intended to the OP, but to Guffey's post.
OP
OP
JCSC
Member
Whew, that one got lengthy.
I appreciate the initial comments. I said I was a rookie, but I do know how to size my brass and make it fit and function properly in a given chamber, without oversizing and destroying it.
The comment about “shooters at the highest precision level” was not in reference to any person in particular. I have no clue what a professional bench rest shooter does to his loads and I thought I may have been reading something that I had never encountered before.
I think my question about the dimension from the shoulder to Ogive was cleared up by varminterror, which he mentioned that this is measured indirectly, by knowing your BTO and placing your shoulder in the correct location.
Thanks JC
I appreciate the initial comments. I said I was a rookie, but I do know how to size my brass and make it fit and function properly in a given chamber, without oversizing and destroying it.
The comment about “shooters at the highest precision level” was not in reference to any person in particular. I have no clue what a professional bench rest shooter does to his loads and I thought I may have been reading something that I had never encountered before.
I think my question about the dimension from the shoulder to Ogive was cleared up by varminterror, which he mentioned that this is measured indirectly, by knowing your BTO and placing your shoulder in the correct location.
Thanks JC
JFrank
Member
Excellent! ^^
J
J
JFrank
Member
Let’s take a poll shall we.
If an object is in a different location then previously located then it must have moved or been moved.
Check one...
Yes
No
Maybe
If an object is in a different location then previously located then it must have moved or been moved.
Check one...
Yes
No
Maybe
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
Nah. Your perception of it has changed after you measured it three times...
It's place in time-space has changed, not it's position in space-space.
It's place in time-space has changed, not it's position in space-space.
Correct, but you can use the same method to set up a sizer. FL size the case a tiny bit at a time until the bolt drops free. If you had a big die adjustment when it does, you'll have to go back and play with the die between those two adjustments.
Another method is to fire the case in your chamber and size to keep the shoulder there.
Another is to hammer a case three times with full loads so it is close to full chamber size and size to move the shoulder .002.
In my post above where I showed measuring the shoulder I fired it twice and sized to move the shoulder .001.
Pick your poison.
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