Infamy of .38 Spl

Likely because there were so many different loadings because there were so many different strength revolvers. It started out as a black powder load, and then when smokeless came about, it was not manufactured to its full potential at times. The original cartridge cases were made for black powder as well and there were worries about case failure with smokeless.

An exception is the 38/44 loading (made with special head stamps) that required the larger frame revolvers initially made for larger calibers. The S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman, that became the Model 23, could handle this load. It is an N-Frame revolver.

Hand loaders can take advantage of its full potential, easily eclipsing the ballistics of the 9mm Luger cartridge.

I have never let the haters bother me. I carry 38 Special more than anything else for the past few years. A S&W 442 for CCW and an old Model 10 for in the woods. Neither has gotten me killed yet. I use Winchester PDX1 130gr JHP +P in the 442 and regular old reloaded 158gr JHP (not +P) in the Model 10.

Ignorance is bliss. If the belief is as simple as “38 is marginal” and “9mm is enough” then it’s a really simple comparison. Throwing various bullets and velocities, materials, hardnesses around complicated things and makes people use their brains more than many want to do. Generally the same crowd though will go to great extremes touting the 30-06 or some other rifle round as being great when used with an AFrame, SMK, or ballistic tip bullet. Go figure... I guess some think that bullet design only matters in high velocity guns.

I believe it has more to do with semi-auto vs, revolver.

130gr 38 +P ammo will get up to around 124gr 9mm NATO velocity. As the saying goes, all's any of 'em shoot is bullets, and few people seem to have any problems with the near identical 9mm.

mcb said:

I have never let the haters bother me. I carry 38 Special more than anything else for the past few years. A S&W 442 for CCW and an old Model 10 for in the woods. Neither has gotten me killed yet.

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Have you used them in a self defense situation? Just curious.

If you have to sell new guns, you need to run down the old ones.

fxvr5 said:

Have you used them in a self defense situation? Just curious.

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I have fought off several up armored opossums and nope-ropes with them both. Thankfully no two legged varmints yet.

if you carry it for self defense, a well place shot is more important than the caliber. hit them in the xiphoid area and they are doneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. the xiphoid area is where the ribs come together and it is common to knock the wind out of some one their. a bullet would do more than knock the wind out of them, they would go down fast. it is better known as the pit of the stomach. it is easy to aim for and as a old vet will a lot of battle experience. told me. not one round but at least 3. dont worry about the cal. of gun your have, just put three rounds in the xiphoid process and you will have no problem with the criminal trying to do his game. it may sound cold but it can happen to anyone anywheres at any time. my wife carries a ruger lcr 22 mag and it is plenty enough if shot right. 3 shots in the right place will change a bad guys mind very fast.

After reviewing choices in 38 special, I am comfortable with Speer Gold Dot short barrel +P 135 grain JHP. Developed to more or less match an NYPD 9mm duty load out of a S&W 642, I think 38 special is fine, and don't subscribe to the idea it is inadequate as a round.

Mr. Mosin said:

I know the old 158 LRN was absolutely pathetic as a manstopper

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That's open for discussion. There is nothing about that combo that gives magically worse performance over a whole host of similar or lesser cartridges. I have heard ballisticaly challenged individuals pontificate that even basic 40gr LRN.22 LR fired from a 4" revolver was superior to the .38 Police Service load. Are modern loadings more effective? Maybe so, but a .38 with traditional ammunition made many criminals take a dirt nap over the past century.

I used to believe in “big boredom,” and wrecked my right hand with .44 Magnums and .41 Magnums, fired from N-Frame Revolvers, with my K/L-sized hands, in the Eighties. The conventional wisdom, then, was that one should use something more substantial than 9mm or .38 Special for defense against human opponents. Meanwhile, an NYPD officer named Pat Rogers was working a high-risk unit that concentrated upon catching the worst felons in NYC. He, and his fellow officers, were shooting plenty of bad guys with .38 Special SWC, and getting good results, when the shots were well-placed. (LAPD was getting less-satisfactory results with .38 Special round-nosed lead ammo.) Notice, again, the “well-placed” part. “Uncle Pat” Rogers is no longer with us, but he mentored some authors and trainers who are still active. The knowledge is still out there.

NYPD later switched to the Speer 135-grain Gold Dots. NY Transit Authority was the first to switch, then all of NYPD. They continued to put-down bad guys.
Folks, if there is a “laboratory experiment” for .38 Special shooting results, it is NYC.

I am comfortable with any of the better .38 Special controlled-expansion JHP loads. I load most of my .357 revolvers with the Speer 135-grain Short-Barrel Gold Dots, which are mild for a Magnum, with not much more velocity than the .38 Special version. Only my full-lugged and/or longer-barreled .357 revolvers are loaded with the full-pressure stuff. I don’t want to damage my hands more than they already are. I reckon that the Magnums give me more range, but as most defensive encounters happen up-close, I do not fret if I have .38 in the weapon, at hand.

My spare carry ammo tends to be .38, most of the time, so that it fits into both my .38 and .357 weapons.

On the 9mm side, I generally use Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P, in my Glocks. Much like my .38 Specials, of course. (Lately, I tend to leave the Glocks at home, as the public health emergency has interfered with my ability to train. My Glock skills are more perishable than my revolving-pistol skills.)

Overall, I consider Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST to be equivalent. I am am not stuck on one brand, and, of course, Speer and Federal are under the same big umbrella, now, anyway.

As for why the hate/disdain for .38 Special, well, some folks just need to hate, or look-down upon something, in order to feel better.

I think hardware in general is vastly overblown. Mindset, hand/eye coordination, experience, etc are way more important than the shape of your bullet.

Well, let's see.

Old cartridge; old design of firearm (revolver); more limited capacity (than a semi-auto); usually in a lightweight and small gun that's hard to shoot well for most people, and with a short barrel that robs it of some precious and limited velocity.

So why do people think the .38 Special is no good? Cos the internet said so.

It also said 9x19mm is the bestest ever! So it must be.

The real question should be, do you think it's enough to get you through to other other side of whatever may come your way?

I personally have some doubts about that. I'd rather have bigger, or faster, or more. Or some combination of those that I can handle. But if all I had was a 5 shot snub nosed .38 Special, I'm certainly not going to drop it in the dirt and pick up a rock instead.

There's a story written by Col. Charles Askins back in the 70's where he talks about the 4-inch - 38 Special DA revolver he carried during WWII in Europe. Charles actually used the revolver in battle when he shot a German soldier running away from him in the back. I don't recall the revolver make or model & Charles doesn't mention any specifics on the bullet & load he was using but it was almost certainly standard Army issue WWII 38 Special cartridge. According to Charles the bullet went through the German's backpack & into his back knocking him down & putting him out of action.
There may be lots of more powerful calibers but the 38 Special in the hands of a good shooter is not pathetic.

Catman42 said:

if you carry it for self defense, a well place shot is more important than the caliber. hit them in the xiphoid area and they are doneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. the xiphoid area is where the ribs come together and it is common to knock the wind out of some one their. a bullet would do more than knock the wind out of them, they would go down fast. it is better known as the pit of the stomach. it is easy to aim for and as a old vet will a lot of battle experience. told me. not one round but at least 3. dont worry about the cal. of gun your have, just put three rounds in the xiphoid process and you will have no problem with the criminal trying to do his game. it may sound cold but it can happen to anyone anywheres at any time. my wife carries a ruger lcr 22 mag and it is plenty enough if shot right. 3 shots in the right place will change a bad guys mind very fast.

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Maybe.

Mr. Mosin said:

You assume a snub .38 Spl. I assume a 4" Mdl 10

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I didn't assume you had snub. Just that most people carrying a gun chamber in that cartridge do have a snub 5 shot. They're very popular after all.

i like shooting the 38 special, and i can hit what i want with it, not in general, but to the perfect point of aim. if one puts his or hers life on the line every day, carry bigger. my son is a cop a carry's a 45 auto. im just out and about. head shots at close range is good with any about. untill they sold cartridge handguns, wild bill hickcock carried 2 36 cal revolvers. similar to the 38 special. did ok with them, he was known for a very well placed shot . very very well placed.again, if your in the business of having to carry every day and you could get in a gun fight one of those days. get big and get good with it. to me a short barrel shot gun 12 gauge, ends this discussion. carry one of those in you car or truck.

I'm not saying there may be better choices, but I'm plenty comfortable with 158 gr SWC in my carry snubby. For what it's worth, I once read that more people have been killed with a 32 cal than any other. Not sure if this is true, but from the late 1800s, everyone was making a 32.

A handgun is limited, with a 2in or so barrel its tougher. I'm a .38 fan and am confident with it within limits.

I do NOT want to be shot with anything.

I think the .38 needs to be viewed compared to its competition which are short barreled 32s, 380s, or 9mms. All of them will work if operated well.