Accuracy and the fixed sight .38 Snub (pics)

[tipoc]

From time to time someone will ask about the accuracy of the .38 snubby. Odd that I don't see it asked as often how accurate a .357 snubby is, but I'll leave that alone for now. So I decided to take a few snubby's out and shoot them with the .38 I had on hand and post the results and a few opinions.

Now for the opinion of someone with more experience than I and a better shot to boot you can go here http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/OtherHandguns.htm

I'm about an average shot so take all this for what it is worth.

The 4 guns I took out are a Colt Cobra from 1954, a S&W M&P from 1948 with a 3 1/4" barrel (this gun originally had a 4" barrel but was extensively reworked) and a 2" M&P also from about 48. In a nod to guns with less vintage I also brought an M13-3 from about 1983. All guns are well used.





The ammo I had on hand was;
Winchester .38+P 110 gr. JHP
Speer .38 Spl. +P 158 gr. TMJ (flat nose no hollowpoint)
Winchester 148gr. Super Match WC
Remington 158 Gr. LRN
A handload 158 Gr. LSWCHP at about 850 fps from a 4" barrel

This is what I had on hand. I've fired a good deal of ammo through these guns and some of it does very well. Some of the better stuff available I did not have on hand.

At an outdoor range I fired for accuracy by taking a rest across a range box at 15 and 25 yards. Keep in mind these are all fixed sight guns. All shots were fired single action. The inside of the bulls measures 3". Point of aim was the center of the bottom bar, a 6 o'clock hold.

First up was the 13-3 at 15 yards.The top left group is the Speer, right the Win. 110 gr., and some Winchester .357 158 gr. JSP I had around.



Note that the gun is sighted in for a 158 gr. load at over 1000 fps. The .357 shot to point of aim while the slower 158 gr. +P.38 shot low and the 110 gr. lower still. Thogh faster it is also lighter.

Next up was the old alloy framed shrouded Cobra. Top left the Rem. 158gr. LRN, a round known for it's less than stellar performance as a self defense round. To the right the 158 Gr. handload. on the bottom the 148 gr. Winchester match wadcutter ammo.



The Cobra is an alloy framed gun and I've noted that it's lighter weight tends to promote muzzle flip evan with a lighter .38. This leads, in my hands at least, to a wider shot dispersal.

I enjoy the look and heft of the cut down M&P let's see how she shoots.



Left and right the Rem LRN. Center and lower left the 158gr. handload, lower right the 148 gr. Win match.

Next the 2" M&P.



Top and lower left the Rem LRN. Right was the handload.

The groups are fairly representative of how the guns shot and how I shoot. In other thands they could make do with a few less flyers (though I called 'em) and perhaps with tighter groups.

I'll take a short break and continue.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

To continue...

The 2" M&P at 25 yards.



Top the Winchester Match. Lower left the LRN, lower right the handload.

The M13 with the .38 +P 158gr. For this I aimed at the top bar.



A few conclusions: Ammo matters. We all know this counts when it comes to selecting a round for self defense or for hunting. It also counts for accuracy. Of the rounds shot here the guns preferred the 158 gr. LSWCHP handload. All showed good potential accuracy with this round. Also not a bad choice for self defense.

All the guns shot here are sighted in at the factory for 158 gr. loads. The M 13 prefers that bullet weight in a .357. It does well with CCI Blazer JHP at about 1100 fps. A bullet weight and velocity I prefer in a K frame as it makes for good controlability.

The inherent mechanical accuracy of the snubby is as good as any adjustable sighted revolver. What limits it's accuracy for most shooters are it's sights and the shorter sight radius. The sights are lower, in general not as easy to see as the higher riding adjustables which generally provide a cleaner and sharper sight picture. This is a matter of practical rather than inherent accuracy. In the hands of a better shooter than I fixed sight Model 10s have won bullseye matches at 25 and 50 yards.

During two trips to the outdoor range I also brought with me a 4" barreled M19 and an M28 both have adjustable sights. I shot them side by side with the M13 with loads they preferred. The groups with the 19 and 28 tended to be smaller at 25 yards. The sights are much easier on my eyes. That was the only difference.

The strength of the fixed sight snubby is in their portability and snag resistance. They do not always require a holster. Pocket carry, ankle carry, etc. can be easier than with an adjustable sight gun. They are not as versatile as the adjustable sighted gun and that is their particular strength. They are task specific it seems to me.

tipoc

 

[ChristopherG]

Tipoc,

This is a nice piece of work and a thread to keep in mind to refer to. Thanks for putting it together, and good shooting!

I agree with your conclusion--the mechanical accuracy of snubs in my life is impressive, but I do not expect to be able to exploit that mechanical potential in the field or in a firefight (heaven forfend) because of the relatively invisible sights and the difficulty of smoothly running a snubby trigger in DA. They serve a limited but extremely important role in my collection.

 

[tipoc]

This next batch of shots was done at 8 yards at an indoor range where one can fire as fast as one can. All shots fired double action. I stood at low ready, rapidly brought the gun up and, as soon as I could get a decent sight on, squeezed off a round, returned to low ready and did it again. I used the handload for this as I had a good deal of it on hand.

The 2" M&P



The 3 1/" M&P





The Cobra.



Finally below, the bull is 5.5" all rounds were fired at from 7-9 yards double action as fast as I could get a decent sight and pull. These were matched pairs, double taps, and one handed shots, etc. Ammo was mixed.



Normally I use a 3" bull at this distance for this type of shooting but I had none on hand. The larger 5.5" tends to make me sloppier. Anything outside that bull was a miss. Aboiut 70 rounds there.

I need to work on my DA.

At any rate snubbys are more for this type of shooting. Fast defensive action. Accuracy counts here as well.

tipoc

 

[Serpico]

Excellent post and thanks...if I din't know any better I'd think you were Stephen Camp....your style of posting is very similar...

 

[alucard0822]

Tipoc you are a lucky lucky man, awesome collection, and good shooting. I am surprised at how well they shoot at 25 yards.

 

[tipoc]

Thanks for the comments.

Like all guns snubbys are a trade off it seems to me. The slightly larger size of the K frame usually means more weight and a larger grip that tends to aid control. The smaller J can be easier to carry. I've shot a good many K and J frames over the years. In the J I've been partial to the Centennial. I oughta try a Bodyguard with the shrouded hammer. Some guns are more accurate than others, or at least I'm more accurate with some than others. The Cobra with it's shrouded hammer and larger grip frame has for now taken the place of any J. A compromise inside a compromise.I find the capability of a more accurate single action shot should it be needed comforting.

15 yards is the distance from my garage door to the street. 25 yards is the distance across a fairly narrow street. Next time you're in a parking lot pace off the distance between the aisles.

In any self defense situation, distance oughta be our friend an aid to us and a hindrence to our foe.

tipoc

 

[DrLaw]

It can be done

I could not hit well with my snubbies. Seemed like I would make a shotgun blast group with them.

Then I attended a Linebaugh Big Bore Seminar and the King of the Large Cartridges showed me how to do it. Large gun or small, John Linebaugh knows how to shoot! Had me grouping small in nothing flat.

That next year I brought in my snubbie to compete in my club's pistol league against 6 inchers and tuned automatics.

I did credible shooting. Not the best yet, but very credible.

The Doc is out now.

 

[ravencon]

Nice post. It proves once again that snubbies can do the job if you can do the job.

 

[1BLINDREF]

Great post!! Thanks for all of the hard work.

if I din't know any better I'd think you were Stephen Camp

Thats exactly what I was thinking as I read the post.
BTW - Nice collection of vintage snubbies

 

[Bearhands]

YES! EXCELLENT post! .... I have been shooting my 4" Victory M&P lately and truly appreciate your information!.. Until recently, I wouldn't give any time to a fixed sighted revolver..but my recent range exploits and this post have given me more impetus to continue! thanks again!

 

[mec]

Most shooters are not quite that good with a snub (most don't come close with full sized handguns) but this string shows what they can do in the hands of somebody enthusiastic enough to become familiar with them.
I really like that stag/tgripped M&P.

 

[DrLaw]

Bearhands said: YES! EXCELLENT post! .... I have been shooting my 4" Victory M&P lately and truly appreciate your information!.. Until recently, I wouldn't give any time to a fixed sighted revolver..but my recent range exploits and this post have given me more impetus to continue! thanks again!

Just think of a fixed-sight revolver as an adjustable sight one with parts that you don't really move much at all.

The Doc is out now.

 

[tipoc]

Thanks for the comparison to Camp, high praise that. Glad this post was useful.

tipoc

 

[beagler]

Very nice work! I really enjoy carrying my 637, and it is fun to shoot! Some people doubt the effectiveness of a 38 spl, I surely don't.

 

[Dave Williams]

Neat thread and I love your old school snubbies.

I've got a buddy that can hit clay pidgeons on the backstop mound with a one hand bullseye stance at 50yds with his 642 more often than not.

Dave Williams

 

[ChuckB]

"I've got a buddy that can hit clay pigeons on the backstop mound with a one hand bullseye stance at 50yds with his 642 more often than not."

Chuck