Can firearms be sold online?

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bearcreek said:
You just made this claim again, literally one sentence after you said you'd never heard of it happening. Or was that not what "nope" meant?
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Tell ya what, YOU do whatever you want..IF I were to sell FTF, in state where it's legal(it isn't here in CO), I will do it via a FFL who will do a 4473....ATMO..According to MY OPINION..eh?

Dude who shot up Las Vegas..you think they didn't take a long and hard look at the places where he got his arsenal? The guy who sold him some of his ammo is in Fed lockup-NOT for selling to THIS guy but making his own ammo and selling it in general..BUT not specifically because of the LV shooter.
consider what he's suggesting an attempted invasion of privacy but it's still an interesting discussion
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Pretty easy, if you are the buyer and the seller requires a 4473, and you don't like that, walk away..easy...If I'm the seller and the buyer doesn't like what I'm asking for, he can walk away..easy.
 
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Paul R Zartman said:
We seem to have some members here wanting to shock or terrorize other members from selling their items FTF in a local area that allows people to sell or trade their items FTF.
Geeze guys, you sell a bicycle, your not responsible for the idiot who fell off(old wives tale) criminals aren't buying their guns on Armslist...(wives tale), "too expensive", "witnesses", "takes to long"...sometimes longer than the waiting period...We need to quit responding to these ...(WHAT IF) members trying to ruin a good discussion.
Paul
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Not trying to ruin anything but tellin' ya what I would do..you do whatever you want. BTW-the bike story was true, and I was a 'expert' witness', via an affidavit.
 
FFGColorado said:
Tell ya what, YOU do whatever you want..IF I were to sell FTF, in state where it's legal(it isn't here in CO), I will do it via a FFL who will do a 4473....ATMO..According to MY OPINION..eh?

Dude who shot up Las Vegas..you think they didn't take a long and hard look at the places where he got his arsenal? The guy who sold him some of his ammo is in Fed lockup-NOT for selling to THIS guy but making his own ammo and selling it in general..BUT not specifically because of the LV shooter.


Pretty easy, if you are the buyer and the seller requires a 4473, and you don't like that, walk away..easy...If I'm the seller and the buyer doesn't like what I'm asking for, he can walk away..easy.
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Sadly this is now a very good point. Before my State did away with face to face sales I used to do it now and then. Liked being able to buy something, play a while, often years, get tired of it, sell and buy something else. I did get an ID when I sold, would make a bill of sale and keep copy just in case. The problem of recent times is now if some kook goes off they always want to blame anyone else they can find. Guy could be totally able to walk into a shop and buy but, the fact he bought from you would still be a splash on the news. Have still sold since here. Listed on a couple sites. Only real hassle was all the stupid scam artists trying to get me to mail them a gun and such, and the ones who would agree to meet at a local shop and then never show up. Last one guy meets, shop runs him, he gets a delayed. So we both leave, he calls me couple days later he was told come back all good. So we both go back again. Shop charged him $25 for doing the transfer.
One funny example. Placed ad, guy calls, wants gun. Offers trade for a shotgun that I liked the sound of. He owns a little eatery shop. We meet there. He meets me seats me out front, walks in with shotgun and lays it on table. I nervously take hand gun out of bag, now feeling the eye's of several on us. We both look, exchange info, he picks up his gun, tells girl who works for him to give me whatever I want to eat on him. I was so uncomfortable I took some pastry of some kind and coffee to go. Damn guy was over the top friendly kind of person. So as I walk out of the place with my food and shotgun I could again feel many eye's on me and I am sure I was the point of a lot of comments :D
 
jar said:
That at least for me is not an issue. No bill of sale and no paper trail no sale.
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Yep, when I used to tell buyer I would need ID to see they were a resident some would never show up. To me it was a big who cares. For those who I was buying from who wanted to see my ID? Again who care's. Nothing I ever sold was sold because I was in a spot and needed cash. So if sale took a while no matter to me. Now days why risk it? Chances are probably on par with getting hit by lightning but again why risk it? If someone is really in a spot and needs quick cash I guess maybe pawn? Never done it but figure at least that way they could get some money in pocket and go get gun back to sell later. The little extra they could get for doing a quick sale could turn into something they would really be kicking themselves for late if it became a problem.
 
What do you guys think? Did I screw up? If he commits a crime and the gun is traced back to me, am I automatically toast?
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Screw up? Not really; but you did forget to ask him. Is merely asking him is all that is required where you live, it is a simple thing to do. Recording someone without their knowledge or consent - is that legal?
As to the criminal aspect, again, if you dealt in good faith, I would see no issue - I think he was so anxious because, IMO, you priced it too low.
 
Alex Clayton said:
Did you read this thread at all?
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Yes, thoroughly. So far, no one has provided an example of anyone getting in trouble for legally selling someone a firearm in a private sale without a bill of sale. Wasn't sure if that was the "risk" that you were talking about. If it was, perhaps you have an example?
 
bearcreek said:
Yes, thoroughly. So far, no one has provided an example of anyone getting in trouble for legally selling someone a firearm in a private sale without a bill of sale. Wasn't sure if that was the "risk" that you were talking about. If it was, perhaps you have an example?
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Ok, did not realize that was what you were after so here is one that happened here. Kook young guy who felt he needed attention went and bought a cheap AK Clone from a guy here back when we could still sell face to face. Guy had no reason at that time he could not buy same gun at a dealer. He then goes to local mall and goes on a shooting spree. He did not want to kill only get attention. One person did get shot and almost died but it was due to his own stupidity. So when it comes out where kid got the rifle the news of course tells all who sold him the gun. Did not keep following up to see exactly what it ended up costing the poor guy who sold him the gun but he did not just shrug it off saying he did not believe this was ever a problem.
Another years before a guy was killed by someone who he either got on the wrong side of or someone may have hired. From the way it went down looked like a hit. Guy used a shotgun he dropped at the scene. Feds check and found who sold the gun to "some guy" who he had no idea who it was. Again did not follow to see exactly how long the problems went on for that guy.
So since I gather you want to believe there is no risk to you to sell guns, have at it. Chances are unless you do something to get the feds attention nothing will ever happen to you. If you want to tell yourself this is harmless, again matters not to me. If you ever have the bad luck to sell to someone who later does some "major shooting" remember how it was of no risk to you after. <shrug>
 
Alex Clayton said:
So since I gather you want to believe there is no risk to you to sell guns, have at it. Chances are unless you do something to get the feds attention nothing will ever happen to you.
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You gather wrong. What I want is for people to back up their claims with evidence. So far no one, including you, have done that. I wasn't asking if there was a risk of someone finding out who sold the gun, or if there was a risk of LE asking the seller questions. I asked for examples of sellers actually getting in trouble for a legal sale. What I want is real information, not guesses based on assumptions.
 
Meeks36 said:
Hey if you don't want to do a bill of sale then you want get my firearm. That simple. When I post I make it clear. Local meet up only. Cash only. Bill of sale required. Unless you have a CCW.
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And you play right into the gun control folks' hands with that attitude. Do you do the same for a kitchen knife, baseball bat or similar? Most of those are responsible for more crimes and assaults than guns
 
A memory just came back. I sold a single shot 12 ga to an acquaintance. Not thinking anything of it. Went to work (I worked for a bail bonding company) phone rings. I answered. You have a free call from _____ _______. I answered asked charges. He didn't recognize my voice. Said felon in possession of a firearm. I about crapped my pants. Didn't tell him it was me. $10000.00 Bond. Couldn't get him out. He had zero money.
I'm waiting for the sheriff to pay me a visit. But nothing ever came of it! He got out. Got up with me. I asked what happened. Someone tried to break in. He shot a hole in the ceiling to scare them off. Law came searched his place. Came back the next day and arrested him. Needless to say it was a scary experience! So be very careful who you sell to.
 
George P said:
And you play right into the gun control folks' hands with that attitude. Do you do the same for a kitchen knife, baseball bat or similar? Most of those are responsible for more crimes and assaults than guns
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While I certainly do not like the way guns are demonized I have to live in the real world here. We in this state can't sell face to face any more anyway. When we could I kept a bill of sale for my protection. Now if I was king and could make law? Lawyers would not be allowed to go after someone who sold a gun to someone who used it in a crime. Sadly personal responsibility long went out the window. So those who live where it's legal can still sell a gun to a total stranger with no record. They better hope it never gets used in a high profile crime since if it does they will be in a spot over it. As much as I do not like this, certainly do not support it, matters not how I feel about it. Again I have to live in the real world, and this is what voters have said they want as they have allowed it to get to this point.
 
Meeks36 said:
A memory just came back. I sold a single shot 12 ga to an acquaintance. Not thinking anything of it. Went to work (I worked for a bail bonding company) phone rings. I answered. You have a free call from _____ _______. I answered asked charges. He didn't recognize my voice. Said felon in possession of a firearm. I about crapped my pants. Didn't tell him it was me. $10000.00 Bond. Couldn't get him out. He had zero money.
I'm waiting for the sheriff to pay me a visit. But nothing ever came of it! He got out. Got up with me. I asked what happened. Someone tried to break in. He shot a hole in the ceiling to scare them off. Law came searched his place. Came back the next day and arrested him. Needless to say it was a scary experience! So be very careful who you sell to.
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In that case, if the law found out you sold him the gun, to come after you they would have to say you knew he could not own a gun and sold it anyway. So assuming you had no reason to know, chances are slim they would have wanted to try to corner you. Now if he had taken that gun to a public shooting of some kind? Then chances are real good the law would have made your life miserable just to make an example of you for the public.
 
Sell a lot of guns FTF, never at my house and they need valid state DL ID. Handguns or AR class rifles... Permit to Carry or purchase from this state. Nothing after dark, and always in sporting store parking lot, where I do a lot of purchasing of shooting stuff. Zero problems.

FYI a lot of these folks who say it will never happen, "they will need to prove it" have never been involved in a lawsuit... Even if your innocent it costs thousands of dollars to hire an attorney and go to court. Why take a chance? Use common sense when selling a gun and cover your A$$.

Oh and the civil lawsuit, where you sold Jimmy that terrible handgun and never even asked how old he was, and was he shot by the police. I am suing you for 10 million and I have a jury trial scheduled. I want your house, car and retirement accounts....
 
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bearcreek said:
You gather wrong. What I want is for people to back up their claims with evidence. So far no one, including you, have done that. I wasn't asking if there was a risk of someone finding out who sold the gun, or if there was a risk of LE asking the seller questions. I asked for examples of sellers actually getting in trouble for a legal sale. What I want is real information, not guesses based on assumptions.
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Here is the reasoning.

If you do not provide identification and accept a bill of sale then I will not sell you a firearm. Whether or not anyone even got in trouble is irrelevant, unimportant and simply not an issue.

No paper trail, no sale. In fact not only will i need to see your photo id I'll need a copy of it.

It really is that simple. If the buyer showed up not wearing a face mask or maintaining social distancing the result would still be the same; no face mask, no social distancing, no sale.

If I were buying it was also still be the same; no bill of sale, no id, no face mask, no social distancing, no sale.
 
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bearcreek said:
Given that no one seems to be able to cite an example of that ever happening, it seems that chances are actually extremely low.
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My chances of EVER needing a HG for a defensive situation approaches zero also yet, I CCW everyday, all day(you too?). Y'all do whatever you want but being cautious when buying and selling firearms is not necessarily a bad thing. As much as the interweb says it's 'the same thing' as buying a kitchen knife for thin sliced tomatoes or a baseball bat for your grand-kid..a HG really isn't 'the same thing'...

-Out
 
jar said:
Here is the reasoning.

If you do not provide identification and accept a bill of sale then I will not sell you a firearm. Whether or not anyone even got in trouble is irrelevant, unimportant and simply not an issue.

No paper trail, no sale. In fact not only will i need to see your photo id I'll need a copy of it.

It really is that simple. If the buyer showed up not wearing a face mask or maintaining social distancing the result would still be the same; no face mask, no social distancing, no sale.

If I were buying it was also still be the same; no bill of sale, no id, no face mask, no social distancing, no sale.
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I'm very well aware of the reasoning. The problem with the reasoning as presented is that no one seems to have any evidence to back it up. Several posters here have talked about the possibility of getting in trouble if a buyer uses the gun they sold him to commit a crime, and yet not a single one of those posters has presented an example of that ever happening in real life. I'm somewhat surprised to see this much resistance to someone simply asking for evidence to back up an opinion.

I try to stay as informed as possible and base my opinions on factual information. I really would like to see an actual example of this alleged issue. Since I have been unable to find one, it seems reasonable to ask those who believe it to be an issue for examples. Doesn't that make sense?

FFGColorado said:
My chances of EVER needing a HG for a defensive situation approaches zero also yet, I CCW everyday, all day(you too?).
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The difference is that I can easily show you examples of people needing a handgun for self defense, so, while the chances may approach zero, they are not. So far, not a single person here has presented an example of a legal private seller getting in trouble for the actions of of a buyer after the sale, which means that, based on the evidence presented in this thread, (none) the chances are zero. (I don't think the chances are actually zero, just to be clear. It's just that no one has presented any evidence to the contrary).
 
I don't need to see a real life example evidence to believe, common sense will help a lot here. No body wants to sell a gun to some one who is likely to be committing a crime. Checking the ID, making sure by asking "are you legally able to purchase a gun" and having a permit if required in your state. Why would you take a chance? Sure they can fake an ID and lie to you but you complied with a reasonable persons expectations on selling a firearm.
 
wmgeorge said:
Checking the ID, making sure by asking "are you legally able to purchase a gun" and having a permit if required in your state.
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I wasn't saying that a person shouldn't do those things. I was saying that some people don't want strangers (who know they own firearms) to keep copies of their ID or personal information.
 
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