RVers state of residence

FlSwampRat said:

...if someone has no actual physical address anymore how does one handle purchasing a firearm, concealed carry permits (which in Fla don't have any address printed on them) and so on?

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They don't.
It's been discussed extensively in other threads here on THR, but the major points are:
1. When buying from a licensed dealer, the buyer must provide a government issued photo ID showing his current residence address. If that ID does not show the current residence address, then additional government issued documentation showing the buyers name and current address may be used. ****
2. When completing the Form 4473, the buyer must list his current residence address.
3. The buyer signs the 4473 certifying under penalty of law that his answers are true correct and complete.
4. ATF Ruling 2010-6 State of Residence https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download
5. It matters not one bit whether you have a drivers license with your "permanent address", the address where you vote, pay taxes, or own land.
6. The ATF Ruling is extremely liberal in what is required for "residency" for the purposes of acquiring firearms.
7. It is quite possible for some full time RV'ers to not be able to legally acquire firearms because they have no way to provide the documentation required.


****Amazingly, trying to explain to a buyer what is a government issued document isn't as easy as it sounds. I've been handed cable TV bills from Time Warner, bank and credit card statements and funniest of all........a copy of a letter the buyer wrote to his city.

FlSwampRat said:

Now I'm wondering, if someone has no actual physical address anymore how does one handle purchasing a firearm, concealed carry permits (which in Fla don't have any address printed on them) and so on?

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They can buy from individuals, in states where it's legal. Residency, for the purposes of legally buying a firearm from a private individual, not a dealer, requires no ID or set period of time residing in the state (at the Federal level at least). https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

FlSwampRat said:

I had someone ask me casually about buying a gun in Fl if one didn't have a permanent residence and I didn't have an answer.
The gist of it was they were planning on selling their house up north and literally moving into an RV and become gypsies not staying anywhere for long. They were down here in Fla just checking some things out and got curious. I didn't know and they said they were just wondering.
Now I'm wondering, if someone has no actual physical address anymore how does one handle purchasing a firearm, concealed carry permits (which in Fla don't have any address printed on them) and so on?

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Bigger question is; how's he going to get a driver's license, tags and registration for the RV, etc. if he's got no physical address?

Outlaw75 said:

Bigger question is; how's he going to get a driver's license, tags and registration for the RV, etc. if he's got no physical address?

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Many have a mail forwarding service as their mailing address, and then use that for DL, registration, etc.

Many have a mail forwarding service as their mailing address, and then use that for DL, registration, etc.

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This what we did when full timing for 2 1/2 years about 15 or so years ago.
There was a "club" called the Escapees that had parks all over the Southwest that if you were a member could have your registration, plates, DL and mailing address at their club headquarters in South Dakota. (You didn't even have to go there to join.) I seem to remember that there were several similar clubs based out of Texas,,,,,

Frank Ettin said:

That's not exactly right. Residence in a State for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 requires (1) presence in a State; and (2) with the intention of making one's home in that State. See 27 CFR 478.11:

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What about my statement was not right? Is an ID legally required by Federal law for private sales? Does a person have to reside in a state for a set period of time in order to legally establish residency for the purposes of buying a firearm?

bearcreek said:

What about my statement was not right? Is an ID legally required by Federal law for private sales? Does a person have to reside in a state for a set period of time in order to legally establish residency for the purposes of buying a firearm?

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The person buying the firearm would have to be a resident of the same state as the person selling the firearm or the sale would have to go through an ffl in the buyers state of residence. The state of residence as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

bearcreek said:

They can buy from individuals, in states where it's legal. Residency, for the purposes of legally buying a firearm from a private individual, not a dealer, requires no ID or set period of time residing in the state (at the Federal level at least). https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

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Careful..........for the purposes of acquiring firearms, the exact same Ruling applies whether the seller is a licensee or nonlicensee.
It is a Federal crime to transfer a firearm to someone who is not a resident of your state. Licensed dealers may transfer rifles or shotguns to residents of other states if the firearm is legal in their state.

Example: Your brother is a full time RV'er with no current residence address and wants to buy a rifle from you.........you cannot. He is not a resident of your state for the purposes of acquiring a firearm. If you knew this when selling to your brother....you commit a felony as well.

FlSwampRat said:

Yet, if they're honest filling out a 4473, they don't have a physical address any more than the RVer who is staying nowhere for very long. "Behind the dumpster by the Dollar General" doesn't cut it with the DMV or ATF I'd imagine. If some RVer isn't in one place long enough for someone to mail them a birthday card they are in the same situation I'd imagine.

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Yep, it's a fun idea to be totally rootless, but it's nearly impossible to function in society without a permanent physical address of some sort. I don't think you could even get away with putting a P.O. Box down as your address on a 4473.

FlSwampRat said:

I didn't expand my original post to include that, and I should have as it's kind of the root issue. If you don't actually have a permanent domicile location, would you be considered homeless, one notch above someone sleeping in their parked car?
A homeless person has even more need of a firearm for protection than I do surrounded by concrete walls. Yet, if they're honest filling out a 4473, they don't have a physical address any more than the RVer who is staying nowhere for very long. "Behind the dumpster by the Dollar General" doesn't cut it with the DMV or ATF I'd imagine. If some RVer isn't in one place long enough for someone to mail them a birthday card they are in the same situation I'd imagine.

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A person can be homeless, living in a homeless shelter and use that as his current residence address for his government issued photo ID.
ATF doesn't care if your address is "Behind the dumpster by the Dollar General" as long as thats your current residence address and you can provide the required documentation.

Outlaw75 said:

I don't think you could even get away with putting a P.O. Box down as your address on a 4473.

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Since the instructions to Que 2 state in bolded text "cannot be a post office box" you are correct.

heyjoe said:

The person buying the firearm would have to be a resident of the same state as the person selling the firearm or the sale would have to go through an ffl in the buyers state of residence. The state of residence as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

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Yes, obviously. The OP was asking how a full time RV'er could go about buying a firearm, given that dealers are legally required to see proof of residence. A legal private sale is one option for them since no ID is required (by Federal law. As always, state law may differ).

Frank Ettin said:

No, but the circumstances of one's presence in the State must be consistent with a manifest intent to make his home there. In the absence of case law on point, we can not simply assume that a judge would find that condition satisfied in the case of nomadic folks in their RV who are continually traveling around. Would a judge decide that these peripatetic folks "make their [temporary] home" wherever they stop, at least for as long as they stay there? We don't know.

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So, what are you saying? Is there, or is there not a legal way for a full time, nomadic RV'er to buy a firearm? Or are you not sure?

dogtown tom said:

Careful..........for the purposes of acquiring firearms, the exact same Ruling applies whether the seller is a licensee or nonlicensee.
It is a Federal crime to transfer a firearm to someone who is not a resident of your state. Licensed dealers may transfer rifles or shotguns to residents of other states if the firearm is legal in their state.

Example: Your brother is a full time RV'er with no current residence address and wants to buy a rifle from you.........you cannot. He is not a resident of your state for the purposes of acquiring a firearm. If you knew this when selling to your brother....you commit a felony as well.

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I'm not suggesting or implying anything illegal. A full time RV'er who is a US citizen is a resident of some state at some point. While they are a resident of that state, it is legal for them to buy a firearm from another resident of that state without showing anyone an ID. There is nothing in Federal law that says a person must have a mailing address in order to legally purchase a firearm.

The hard part is that the 4473 does ask for some evidence of one's intention to reside in a place.
As Tom points out, if that is not a government issued ID, then some other alternate form is wanted--like utility bills or the like (or receipts from local government).

As to an FTF, what form of ID would a person want to know they are not making a felonious sale? Something state-issued, perhaps? To get State issued ID typically mean having resided in a give State for a length of time prescribed by that State.

And, that's where the wires all wind up crossed up.

Given that an RVer is going to need a State issued driver's license, and insurance, and some form of vehicle registration, this all suggest joining one of the various "clubs." Which will, naturally limit one's ability to purchace firearms to that one state, as that's the one where one is 'documented.' Those who live on the water are in similar straights.

Now, to the point above about how an RVer might be armed--they can purchase what they want before becoming nomads--there is no requirement for transients or nomads to surrender their arms (generally, that is, certain states are going to be more restrictive). Purchasing while being a nomad is going to be more complicated.

Frank Ettin said:

Why?

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Now that you ask, I suppose I'm not entirely sure. Can a person be a citizen of the US but not of any of the states or territories thereof? I doubt it, especially in the case of someone who regularly resides within borders of the US, but I suppose it's possible.

Frank Ettin said:

Well perhaps in some general, intuitive sense, but to buy a gun he must be a resident as defined in the AF Regulations promulgated under the GCA68

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It is certainly intuitive to think that a person has to have an intention to make a "home" eventually, somewhere, at some point. As you've pointed out however, the law is not always intuitive so....

Frank Ettin said:

Now if someone wants to research the case law, I'd be very interested to see what he comes up with.

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As would I. Wouldn't surprise me if there isn't any.

CapnMac said:

As to an FTF, what form of ID would a person want to know they are not making a felonious sale? Something state-issued, perhaps? To get State issued ID typically mean having resided in a give State for a length of time prescribed by that State.

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That depends on the individual. Some want to see a photo ID, others don't bother. I've encountered both. Obviously, a photo ID does not guarantee that the person is a resident of the same state, only that they possess an ID from that state, (or appearing to be from that state).

Interesting topic... All those years ago (1971) when I came out of the service and drove almost straight to Miami (my first time there..) I became a legal resident of the state in just a day or two - by affidavit, which was encouraged by the school I was enrolling in under the GI bill... Who knew I'd never leave?

I wonder if something similar isn't available to a nomad (at least if they're willing to stay in one place long enough for it to have some meaning..). Were I in that position.... any documentation I was in need of would simply list whatever RV Park or campground my vehicle was in at that moment (without the slightest regard for any future plans I might entertain). Receiving mail on the other hand would be handled by post box wherever (probably the same state/ location that my banking records and other financial arrangements were to be found). Cutting all ties for a life on the road is more of a dream I suspect than a reality for those into living by RV and going where and when they please as a lifestyle... I wonder how many of them have an agent (or an attorney) assisting in all the paperwork and other trappings of modern life while they're on the road... That then raises the question - could your FFL act as your agent for receiving a firearm -then ship it to the closest FFL wherever you happen to be at the time...

As Mr. Ettin points out frequently the law (and all of it's related requirements) deals in facts, rules, and statutes... I'm guessing that anyone finding themselves not abiding by our current laws will come to regret it (and their lawyer(s) will find employment if there's ever an issue that comes before a judge...).

bearcreek said:

I'm not suggesting or implying anything illegal. A full time RV'er who is a US citizen is a resident of some state at some point.

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For purposes of voting, paying taxes, etc......yes. But for the purposes of acquiring firearms they aren't.
From the ATF Ruling 2010-6 State of Residence:
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

While they are a resident of that state, it is legal for them to buy a firearm from another resident of that state without showing anyone an ID.

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No one wrote that there was such a requirement. The only requirement to provide a government issued photo ID showing the buyers current residence address is when buying from a licensee. However, you now write "While they are a resident of that state".........says who? The ATF ruling spells it out very clearly that "An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State..." If you are a "full time RV'er........you don't actually have an intention of making a home in any state. That's kinda the point of being a fulltime RV'er.

There is nothing in Federal law that says a person must have a mailing address in order to legally purchase a firearm.

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Again, no one has written that there is such a requirement. There IS a requirement to be a resident of the state where you are acquiring any firearm from a nonlicensee.