Bolt action vs. AR in .223 - Accuracy difference?
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You might see an accuracy difference at those ranges, but a lot depends on how each rifle is setup too. A stock bolt action will normally shoot better versus a stock run of the mill AR. You can do things to both to make them very accurate.
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wiscoaster
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There are more variables between those two choices than just barrel length, so a decision based only on that might not produce the result you desire. And 300 yds is pretty long range for an AR, no? Whereas for the Remington? Maybe you're not comparing apples and apples.
300-500 yds. is well within the capabilities of a decent AR.
stillquietvoice
Contributing Member
A lot depends on the ammo you are shooting as well. I have a psa AR kit in 5.56 and an m11 savage in 223. By far my bolt rifle is more accurate especially with my reloads. I had a savage axis II that would shoot better than my current m11 223.
wiscoaster
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OK, thanks, I've never shot mine that far, so I wouldn't know. The point I wanted to make was, what's the "long range" for the Remington? Is it in the same ball park as the AR? Or longer? You want to be comparing rifles of similar range capability if you're making a decision based on relative accuracy.
BigBL87
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Depends alot on the barrel of the AR and how each barrel likes the ammo you're shooting among other factors. Triggers could make a difference too. With bulk ammo, my inexpensive PSA Freedom AR w/ a cheap 1-6x scope shot about 2-3 MOA my last range trip which is reasonable but not good. It is probably capable of better but I was in a hurry the last time I was at the range, had alot of rifles to zero that day. If I had a premium barrel and match ammo, on the other hand, I'd be very unhappy with that.
In my case I'm expecting some accuracy gains going from my AR to my Weatherby Vanguard (which has a .99 MOA guarantee w/ their ammo) when I finally make it back out to the range, though I'm not expecting miracles since I'll be using mostly bulk ammo.
The way I always put it is for your dollar it is easier to build an "accurate" bolt action than an "accurate" AR. That's not to say you may not end up with a sub-MOA budget AR if you get lucky, but you're more likely to end up sub-MOA with a budget bolt action my comparison.
In my case I'm expecting some accuracy gains going from my AR to my Weatherby Vanguard (which has a .99 MOA guarantee w/ their ammo) when I finally make it back out to the range, though I'm not expecting miracles since I'll be using mostly bulk ammo.
The way I always put it is for your dollar it is easier to build an "accurate" bolt action than an "accurate" AR. That's not to say you may not end up with a sub-MOA budget AR if you get lucky, but you're more likely to end up sub-MOA with a budget bolt action my comparison.
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Don't know about the Remington, but the OP has not stated what AR he has though so there's really no way to compare.
jmorris
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I have a number of .223 AR’s that out shoot my cheap bolt action .223’s.
I find it easier to have expectations on something I have shot that to guess or hope before hand.
“AR” is a lot like saying “Ford”, you could be talking about a ‘76 Pinto station wagon or a GT40 or anything in between.
Lots of folks think anything done slowly or with extra work always equates to a more perfect outcome, simply not true.
I find it easier to have expectations on something I have shot that to guess or hope before hand.
“AR” is a lot like saying “Ford”, you could be talking about a ‘76 Pinto station wagon or a GT40 or anything in between.
Lots of folks think anything done slowly or with extra work always equates to a more perfect outcome, simply not true.
Sorry folks, let me level set some more. I was trying to ask the question "all things being equal," but I will provide more info to help you answer.
My AR is a Stag AR, just the basic upper and lower, 16-inch 1:9 barrel. I honestly don't recall what size groups I get, but I only shoot for fun and it's fine for me.
Ammo would be "all things being equal," so let's say your basic American Eagle 55 gr. FMJ load, which is mainly what I have and what I shoot. Ditto for scope and trigger: Assume "all things are equal" so let's remove that from the equation as well.
What I was trying to get at with my question was whether one gun is inherently more accurate than the other. I said 100-300 yards just to indicate I want to see how far I can go with this. So maybe 100-200 yards is more reasonable for this question.
Main point of my question is to determine if it's worth it to buy the 783. It's not going to break the bank, but I don't want it to be a safe queen either. If it's really no better than (or worse than) my AR, not sure I need another toy. I just figured a bolt action might give me a bit more accuracy, but perhaps not.
Hope that clarifies my question, sorry for any confusion. Thanks.
My AR is a Stag AR, just the basic upper and lower, 16-inch 1:9 barrel. I honestly don't recall what size groups I get, but I only shoot for fun and it's fine for me.
Ammo would be "all things being equal," so let's say your basic American Eagle 55 gr. FMJ load, which is mainly what I have and what I shoot. Ditto for scope and trigger: Assume "all things are equal" so let's remove that from the equation as well.
What I was trying to get at with my question was whether one gun is inherently more accurate than the other. I said 100-300 yards just to indicate I want to see how far I can go with this. So maybe 100-200 yards is more reasonable for this question.
Main point of my question is to determine if it's worth it to buy the 783. It's not going to break the bank, but I don't want it to be a safe queen either. If it's really no better than (or worse than) my AR, not sure I need another toy. I just figured a bolt action might give me a bit more accuracy, but perhaps not.
Hope that clarifies my question, sorry for any confusion. Thanks.
jmorris
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No such thing as “all things being equal” in an apples to oranges comparison but I’d put my money on a decent AR over a budget bolt action. From my experience.
A good AR barrel will be a better investment towards accuracy that a cheap complete bolt action rifle, that’s almost assured.
A good AR barrel will be a better investment towards accuracy that a cheap complete bolt action rifle, that’s almost assured.
And remember service members had to shoot and hit man size targets at 300 or 500 meters (depending on branch of service) with a M16A1 and M16A2 rifle with peep sights in order to qualify expert with a rifle. Point being made is that a standard AR15 with peep sights is capable of hitting a man sized target at 300 meters all day long with surplus M193 55Gr FMJ or M855 62Gr ammo.
Now if you are talking about shooting super small groups at distance, then you want a rifle that is purposely set up for that. A good bolt action or purpose built AR will shoot tiny groups at distance.
Now if you are talking about shooting super small groups at distance, then you want a rifle that is purposely set up for that. A good bolt action or purpose built AR will shoot tiny groups at distance.
BigBL87
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Don't know much about Stag's accuracy reputation, so can't speak specifically to that. If they are average for ARs though, I would give you a greater than 50% chance the 783 will be more accurate but its no guarantee.
d2wing
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783's are reputed to be accurate. I don't know if sub MOA is likely or not. AR just depends. AR's can be very accurate but there are so many variables I wouldn't expect much better than 2 MOA but I have a Del-ton 20 inch rifle that is usually sub MOA. That said , You don't really know until you shoot them and how much accuracy do you need.
d2wing
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I qualified expert easily at 400 meters max range with an issue M-16. But that was in the late 60's. From what I hear the modern versions are not as accurate. But still a young guy should be able to hit a man size target at 300 meters with 2 MOA accuracy.
marksman13
Member
The only thing you will gain from the 783 is a longer barrel and therefor more velocity and less bullet drop. Accuracy wise, I’d say a well made AR is going to out shoot a 783. That 22” barrel is not going to
Make enough difference to justify spending the money on a 783. Personally, I’d keep shooting my AR and spend that money on ammo.
Make enough difference to justify spending the money on a 783. Personally, I’d keep shooting my AR and spend that money on ammo.
cdb1
Member
I agree.
You'll need to figure out what size groups it's capable of and then you can compare notes with 783 owners. I've not used a Stag AR so can't say for sure. From what you describe I strongly suspect you won't notice a difference in accuracy, or at least not enough to matter. If you want a bolt action just to have one, then go for it.
For the same money it is easier to get a bolt gun to shoot accurately than a semi-auto. There are several budget bolt guns selling well under $400 that will shoot near 1/2 MOA with good ammo. I have a couple of $600-$700 AR's that will shoot 1 MOA or slightly better with the same ammo and to be honest in the real world that is good enough. Most people, in field conditions, don't shoot a 1/2 MOA rifle any better than a 1 MOA rifle. The advantage only shows up on a shooting bench in perfect conditions.
Yes, you should buy a 223 bolt gun and shoot it against your STAG. You will have to start recording group sizes, of course. What you will learn is that accuracy comes down to barrel and chamber for both the bolt and the AR for the 223. Neither platform is more inherently accurate than the other. If they don’t shoot to your expectations, and you want to make them better, you can re-barrel them.
Used to, it was cheaper to re-barrel a bolt, but not any more, they are about the same price. For example, I had a Win 70 bolt gun and an Colt AR done by Krieger in 2016 and after equalizing for barrel length differences, the AR was cheaper. Krieger did all the fitting, head spacing, replaced my gas tube, etc but I’m not sure if they offer that service anymore.
For good accuracy, here are some load work ups I did with a Krieger 20” barrel. These are 10 round groups shot in less than 30 seconds for each group. Since then, I’ve gotten the Speer 70 sub MOA for 10 rounds, and I got the IMR-4166 to work well, in addition to the Varget and IMR-3031 I’d already figured out. Ignore the 3-ring binder holes on the left.
View attachment 946822
Used to, it was cheaper to re-barrel a bolt, but not any more, they are about the same price. For example, I had a Win 70 bolt gun and an Colt AR done by Krieger in 2016 and after equalizing for barrel length differences, the AR was cheaper. Krieger did all the fitting, head spacing, replaced my gas tube, etc but I’m not sure if they offer that service anymore.
For good accuracy, here are some load work ups I did with a Krieger 20” barrel. These are 10 round groups shot in less than 30 seconds for each group. Since then, I’ve gotten the Speer 70 sub MOA for 10 rounds, and I got the IMR-4166 to work well, in addition to the Varget and IMR-3031 I’d already figured out. Ignore the 3-ring binder holes on the left.
View attachment 946822
FL-NC
Member
It depends on... everything. I would put my 223 Larue AR firing 77 grain MK 262 in a pepsi challenge against most any other 223 at 100 yards. The shooter's ability to fire a group is also a significant factor.
Simple answer - Differences will be insignificant for most shooters.
Let this thread go for a while and you will get spread sheets, a power point presentation and a lecture on the terminal ballistic differences in barrels that differ in length by 6".
Cemetery21
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No offense, but it doesn't sound like OP is shooting his AR for accuracy now.
So, with those standards, I'd guess the bolt gun to be fun also. It's a whole 'nother rabbit hole if one chases accuracy - custom parts and handloads, in my case. Many thousands of dollars and range time/competitition for others.
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