What caused this squib?

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stonebuster

stonebuster

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A little background...I loaded my first 31 reloads last week 38spl 158gr Xtreme copper plated FN over 4.0gr HP-38. They all shot normally. I loaded another 50 rounds the same data. At the range today I had a squib that made it 5" down a 6" barrel. No bang, just Poof. There was a good deal of un-burned powder(flakes, like right out of jug) left in the cylinder chamber, cylinder face and forcing cone. I'm absolutely certain there was powder in the case because I've pulled every case out of the shell holder to visually confirm powder was dumped before seating the bullets. Every single time, no exceptions. I'm using Seller & Bellot SP primers of unknown age I bought from a friend. I've been placing the primers in the primer arm with my fingers rather than the feeder. I've read that can lead to contaminating the primers. There were a couple other rounds out of a 4" revolver that sounded weak so I quit. I zero my beam scale before every use and check the weight of Auto Drum powder drop several times before starting to load. Every 8-10 cases get dumped on the scale and checked to confirm 4.0 grains. It's been right every time I checked. Last night I decided to see how these rounds chambered in the cylinder and they were slightly difficult to load. The case lip where it meets the bullet seemed to need more crimp (lee fcd) so I ran the through the crimp die again after adjusting it tighter. According to Hodgdon data my load should be good for the bullet. I used a brass dynamite punch I had from work to tap the bullet out after oiling the barrel. Is it possible I damaged the primers loading them with my fingers?
 
stonebuster said:
Last night I decided to see how these rounds chambered in the cylinder and they were slightly difficult to load. The case lip where it meets the bullet seemed to need more crimp (lee fcd) so I ran the through the crimp die again after adjusting it tighter
Click to expand...

My best guess is not enough crimp, meaning not enough pressure built up to completely ignite the powder, leading to your squib. Post a pic of your finished rounds and somebody with more knowledge than me will show up with an answer.

chris
 
My first thought would be wet case or powder contamination. Touching the primer won’t make any difference unless you’re dripping sweat into it. Case crimp won’t make that much difference, you can shoot .38 Special with no crimp if you choose.
 
You load of 4.0grs of W231/HP-38 is a bit on the light side...I'd be concerned about the bullet not clearing the barrel if a charge was a bit lighter than normal. For light target/competition loads I usually load 4.3-4.5grs behind that bullet.

With your description of the condition and remaining powder, it doesn't sound like the primer was contaminated. If the primer hadn't ignited, the bullet wouldn't have gotten as far down the barrel as it did.

It is possible that you have a lighter than normal charge of powder, but it would be more likely that your powder was contaminated.

Being slightly difficult to load would lead me to believe that you didn't chamber check them after loading and that they weren't sized to provide proper neck tension...1) were you loading mixed head stamps and 2) what was the head stamp of the case of the load which squibbed?

You mentioned using a Lee FCD. This adds the possibility, beside not having enough crimp, that the resizing of the case caused a reduction in neck tension by deforming the bullet

My WAG is a R-P case not optimally resized. Posting a picture of one of your loaded rounds might shed more light on what happened.
 
Hard to say but I go with contaminated charge, and the primer did all the work to get it that far down the bore.

As I'm sure all reloaders do, we pride ourselves on being careful and paying attention to detail, yet I had this happen to me once many years ago when shooting a Marlin 1895 .45-70 with a heavy cast bullet and an IMR cannister powder (can't remember which). Everything was going bang, then I had one shot that was a soft "poof". I knew something was wrong and ejected the case. Loose powder went everywhere, but the bullet had exited the bore.

The remainder of the loaded rounds went bang as expected, it was just that one lone cartridge that to this day has me scratching my head.
 
That load is under 700 fps, which is undesirable for a jacketed bullet. Save those nice XTPs for the 357 Mag. One bullet maker has warned not to use 158gr jacketed bullets in the 38 Special for decades, due to the likelihood of sticking a bullet in the bore just as occurred here.
 
WRT undercharging, I agree with above posts to be cautious of that as well. Another tale from the bygone era, but the first ammo I reloaded (.38 Spl) was with the Lee handloader kits, which when I look back was a very primitive system (set off a few primers loading with that kit).

Lee included a little plastic scooper with the kit, and on their load chart provide a powder name and bullet weight that one level scoopful is appropriate for. I chose a 158 gr JSP and Unique, per the chart. I aimed my 6" bbl S&W model 10 at a 2x6 about 10 feet in front of me. 3 bullets impacted the wood, then the next shot there was no bullet impact. Looking at my revolver, I saw the JSP bullet sticking halfway out of the muzzle. However with that shot there was no unburned powder, I was just flirting with a charge that hovered on being too light for a jacketed bullet.
 
The primer worked, as evidenced by the bullet making most of the trip. Either your charge was light (which I doubt), or damp.

I can attest that the amount of water that can hang in a meniscus in the flash hole will spoil a pistol case full of powder, but won't generally harm the primer. That's my guess.
 
BBarn said:
That load is under 700 fps, which is undesirable for a jacketed bullet.
Click to expand...

I agree.

BBarn said:
Save those nice XTPs for the 357 Mag. One bullet maker has warned not to use 158gr jacketed bullets in the 38 Special for decades, due to the likelihood of sticking a bullet in the bore just as occurred here.
Click to expand...

But the OP wasn't using XTPs, he was using a plated Xtreme bullet, which many folks suggest using high end lead bullet data. The OPs load of 4 gr is on the high end, actually is the max load for a lead 158 from Lyman's 50th.
 
A light charge, powder against the bullet away from the powder (Gun was hanging down in your hand before being brought up level to fire), a primer probably wouldn't get the bullet that far, not in a revolver with a cylinder gap especially.

WST or Competition are much more forgiving of powder position for this application. S&B SP primers are very good, but a bit milder than some. Did you work the load up with those, or switch to them?

I use 3.6 to 3.8 Grs of those two powders in .38 Spl or .357 Mag brass with an X-Treme 158 Gr SWC and they run 700/725/750ish depending on the gun etc, always get the bullet out of the barrel (Did a lot of testing), and shoot very well.
 

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buck460XVR said:
But the OP wasn't using XTPs, he was using a plated Xtreme bullet, which many folks suggest using high end lead bullet data. The OPs load of 4 gr is on the high end, actually is the max load for a lead 158 from Lyman's 50th.
Click to expand...

I misread the bullet used, so my earlier statements above may not be directly applicable in this case. My apologies.

However, I believe plated bullets do have higher friction than swaged or cast lead. And the bullet maker I referred to earlier was Speer, whose pistol bullets are plated in many cases. So the recommendations I suggested earlier are probably still applicable.
 
Possibly - as you describe the conditions - a fouled primer flash hole. Allows a portion of the primer flame through, but results in a not quite full ignition. The unburnt and quasi burnt powder remains indicates some charge.
The load strikes me as being pretty light. However, HP-38 is pretty fast burning, so a small charge is normal.
 
He stated he had a good amount of un-burnt powder left after the squib, so saying the load might not have been stout enough doesn’t really matter, all of what he had didn’t light off.

my guess is the primer went off but his powder was contaminated somehow.
 
My best guess is a fouled flash hole and/or moisture or oil in the case that contaminated powder. I have shot thousands of this same load with mostly cast and some jacketed bullets from -20F to 90F, and have found it reliable and consistent across the spectrum. HP-38 is not difficult to ignite, and does not tend to be overly position sensitive. As an automated powder dispenser is being used, a hiccup due to operator error or foreign matter in the hopper leading to a light charge is also a possibility. I know the OP states he used a high level of QC on powder charges, but stuff happens, especially while doing a mundane and repetetive task.

Questions: Brass prep method? If corn cob or walnut media, was polish added? Were cases otherwise cleaned with a liquid solution after tumble if used? All of these can lead to powder or primer contamination if all liquids are not removed.
 
4.0 isn’t that light of a light load. Hodgdon’s online data shows a starting charge of 3.1 grains with 158 grain lead SWC and 3.8 is the start for a 158 grain XTP. A plated bullet doesn’t need a higher charge than those. The lead SWC load of 3.1 grains should work OK for a plated bullet.
 
Walkalong said:
A light charge, powder against the bullet away from the powder (Gun was hanging down in your hand before being brought up level to fire), a primer probably wouldn't get the bullet that far, not in a revolver with a cylinder gap especially.

WST or Competition are much more forgiving of powder position for this application. S&B SP primers are very good, but a bit milder than some. Did you work the load up with those, or switch to them?

I use 3.6 to 3.8 Grs of those two powders in .38 Spl or .357 Mag brass with an X-Treme 158 Gr SWC and they run 700/725/750ish depending on the gun etc, always get the bullet out of the barrel (Did a lot of testing), and shoot very well.
Click to expand...
First, I really appreciate the input I'm getting here. As far as powder position, I put these rounds back in the original plastic holder (Remington UMC 130gr 38spl) bullet down as the original ones were. The 4gr HP-38 I used doesn't take up much space in the case. Taking the reloads out of the box with the powder at the bullet and putting them in the cylinder basically in the same position could be a problem? The S&B primers were the only ones I used since I started a week ago. I'll post a picture of one of the reloads from the batch as some here suggested.
 
stonebuster said:
I used a vibrating tumbler with corn cob media and a tablespoon of brass polish before removing spent primers. Powder is new.
Click to expand...

I use Nu Finish in my tumbler.
I have to make sure I put it in and run it a while to make sure it’s distributed evenly and not clumped or you can get wet clumps of tumbling media stuck in the case.
 
stonebuster said:
I used a vibrating tumbler with corn cob media and a tablespoon of brass polish before removing spent primers. Powder is new.
Click to expand...

My guess is a clump of wet polish and/or media got stuck in the bottom of your case and contaminated powder. I've had this happen, but caught it prior to charging as I was loading 9mm and the whitish mess was readily visible inside the shallow cases. Operator or mechanical error of the powder measure is also still an outside possibility. There is nothing wrong with your load. I highly doubt neck tension/crimp could cause a squib with HP-38. I'm pretty sure you could make the round fire with an un-resized case and the bullet just pushed in on top of the powder.
 
After looking at the photo of the ammunition, the crimping seems very weak to me...
 
donki1967 said:
After looking at the photo of the ammunition, the crimping seems very weak to me...
Click to expand...
You may have been referring to post #12 which wasn't mine. Here's mine and photos of the inside of case bottom which may be a clue. It seems to be agreed the powder charge of 4.0gr is not the culprit. There seems to be an abundance of burnt crud near the flash holes on some of the fired cases. A lot are pretty clean but some I can scrape the burnt residue out with a wooden pick. You may or may not be able to see from the pictures as it was difficult to photograph. IMG_1483.JPG IMG_1496 (2).JPG
 
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