Garage legality question

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Gasturbine

Gasturbine

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Truly asking for a friend...Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.

Question is, does that extend to a non attached garage on the same owned property?

Here’s what happened, perp entered the garage (through an unlocked door, bc owner went back inside to get a beverage), returned, and discovered said perp, now hiding behind some boxes. Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint, but perp scampered to the door and fled, no shots fired. Police were called, description was made, report made, etc, etc, etc.

police on scene would, or could not answer his question about the use of deadly force.

he did discover the perp went through some things in the garage, but the owner was unable to determine if anything was missing.

thoughts, opinions?
 
Here is what the email I got from buckeye firearms association has to say about the new legislation:
Governor DeWine Signs Duty to Retreat Bill

As a candidate for governor, then Attorney General Mike DeWine promised Ohio's 4 million gun owners that he would sign legislation to repeal the state's unjust duty to retreat law. On Monday, January 4th, 2021,Governor DeWine fulfilled that commitment by signing Senate Bill 175.

During the last days of session in late December 2020, the Ohio General Assembly voted to include this Second Amendment priority in Senate Bill 175, which also grants immunity to non-profit organizations from litigation in the event an act of gun violence takes place on their premises. DeWine's signature on the bill enacts one of Buckeye Firearms Association's top legislative priorities.

"We're very pleased the Governor kept his promise to sign the repeal of Ohio's duty to retreat law that forces victims of violent crime to retreat before they're legally able to defend themselves," said Buckeye Firearms Association Executive Director, Dean Rieck. "Our organization worked relentlessly down the stretch to see this bill become law."

Although speculation ran high that the Governor might veto the bill, his signature on SB 175 keeps a promise he made multiple times in writing, in public and in private meetings with Buckeye Firearms Association and other gun rights advocates.

This bill brings Ohio into line with as many as 25 other states that have no duty to retreat for those who face imminent and deadly harm as long as they are in a place they are legally permitted to be. While this bill changes one technicality in Ohio law, it does not change the near universal and well-established standard for use of lethal force, nor does it give criminals a free pass to commit violent crime.

Governor DeWine has said that he thinks it's important for the legislature to make changes to the NICS reporting system that is meant to prevent criminals from purchasing firearms. Unfortunately, the system has been hampered sometimes when courts or government agencies fail to update the system in a timely fashion.

"From the beginning, BFA has been open to changes that would ensure more timely reporting," said Rieck. "However, we must protect the rights of the law abiding by making sure that reporting is done properly, and that people have a quick process to make corrections when the government makes mistakes. The National Shooting Sports Foundation's Fix NICS initiative is intended to do just that."

Buckeye Firearms Association looks forward to the beginning of the new legislative session and the opportunity to further improve Ohio law.
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My understanding is that you no longer have a duty to retreat even while in public places. In the past you had different rights at the store than you had in your home. Now you are allowed to defend yourself wherever you legally happen to be when attacked.

This legislation does NOT change the requirements for the use of deadly force. If your friend could not prove that he was in fear for his life or great bodily harm, he would not have been justified in shooting regardless of the stand your ground law. We still can not use lethal force in protection of property in Ohio.
 
One more thing on the bill Dewine just signed. I haven't seen any explanation of when it takes effect, but I am assuming it will be 90 days just like most legislation.
 
In my cpl course we had a couple scenarios.

You hear a noise or see something in the garage, you go out to investigate with your gun in hand. You go into the garage, bad guy is there, he sees you have a gun, he goes for his gun, you shoot him, he’s dead. You go to jail because you could have called the police and we’re not being attacked. In essence you instigated the situation that could have been avoided.

Instead of that...you decide to go out to the garage to grab some tools to fix something in the house. You happen to have your gun on you because you often carry. To your surprise when you open the door, a bad guy is in there stealing stuff snd pulls his gun on you and threatens you. You pull your gun and fire, he dies. You are legally within your rights to fire upon him because he threatened you first. You did not instigate anything purposely.

Basically the same scenario, but you had no awareness of anyone in your garage in #2.

I am not a lawyer, this is only what I was told in my cpl course. Just food for thought.
 
The way I heard, as long as you can legally be somewhere you have the right to defend yourself/stand your ground.
 
I had posed this very same question (albeit not for Ohio) to the US Lawshield attorneys a few months ago.
They advised it is a common question and that a detached garage is not considered part of the domicile.
It would seem if the thief was clearly disengaging and rapidly fleeing one would wish to maintain restraint.
 
Blue Jays said:
I had posed this very same question (albeit not for Ohio) to the US Lawshield attorneys a few months ago.
They advised it is a common question and that a detached garage is not considered part of the domicile.
It would seem if the thief was clearly disengaging and rapidly fleeing one would wish to maintain restraint.
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The over arching theme of my cpl course was “defense” and “last resort” when it comes to shooting at people. If there is a way to avoid the situation you need to do your best to avoid it. If someone is fleeing you cannot shoot them and expect to use the self defense claim.

Michigan is the same, detached garage is not part of your domicile. It depends on the situation in that instance. The first thing to do would be call the police to report a burglary.

We also learned that your vehicle becomes your “castle” under the castle doctrine rule when you are inside and driving. You cannot reach out and shoot people attacking your car. If they reach in to grab you and harm you or attempt to remove you from your vehicle, you are within your rights to defend yourself.

I know we only covered the tip of the iceberg in our course, but it was very eye opening as to what is viewed as legal and self defense in various scenarios. This can also change drastically from state to state.
 
I am not a lawyer or an expert on this topic, but I think it is clear that defending yourself does not include shooting a perp who is running away, if you are not under direct threat. Does not matter if you are in a garage or in your house, or in the middle of a desert.
 
Gasturbine said:
.Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.
Click to expand...
Castle Doctrine and "stand your ground" are NOT the same thing. For a full explanation, I recommend you read Branca's Law of Self Defense book or take his basic course, with his state-specific supplemental course.
Castle Doctrine law removes a duty to retreat in your domicile and curtilage (usable living space nearby and contiguous to the domicile). In some states the coverage of the law includes place of business (as the owner but not necessarily as an employee). Whether a detached garage is considered part of the domicile and curtilage under the law also varies by state. It also may depend on appeals court decisions in addition to the language of the law itself.

In contrast, a stand your ground law removes a duty to retreat in spaces other than your domicile. Almost every state has some form of Castle Doctrine, but about a third (if I remember correctly) do not have a stand your ground law. My state of Arkansas is one that has Castle Doctrine but not stand your ground.

The advice above to formally ask the state Attorney General (or ask your state representative to ask) is the best route. In the absence of court rulings and precedents on a law, a published AG opinion is as close to authoritative as you can get for now.

Remember, IANAL, nor have I played one on television, nor even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express. My comments above are based on completion of Branca's LoSD course and study of his book. We do have attorneys (not your attorney) in THR, so they may chime in soon, I hope.

Craig
 
Another old lady in my old neighborhood was raped one morning while doing her laundry in the laundry area of her detached garage. Once I got a gun and training, I never went out to the garage without it. Thank G-d I never had to use it. The law in Cali was that a person could carry without a permit anywhere on his or her own property, in a campsite, or in a hotel room. Whether the Cali version of castle doctrine (which was, you got the presumption of being in fear for your life if someone entered your home by force) would have applied I don't know, but certainly anywhere you're allowed to carry you're allowed to defend yourself from imminent attack.
 
Gasturbine said:
Truly asking for a friend...Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.

Question is, does that extend to a non attached garage on the same owned property?

Here’s what happened, perp entered the garage (through an unlocked door, bc owner went back inside to get a beverage), returned, and discovered said perp, now hiding behind some boxes. Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint, but perp scampered to the door and fled, no shots fired. Police were called, description was made, report made, etc, etc, etc.

police on scene would, or could not answer his question about the use of deadly force.

he did discover the perp went through some things in the garage, but the owner was unable to determine if anything was missing.

thoughts, opinions?
Click to expand...

My thoughts and opinions? This is exactly how it’s supposed to work. Nobody should want to shoot someone (not saying you do) especially a person fleeing. There’s nothing in your garage worth more than a persons life. If you notice a person is there who shouldn’t be, tell them to scram and then go back in side and wait till they leave.
 
Gasturbine said:
Truly asking for a friend...Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.

Question is, does that extend to a non attached garage on the same owned property?

Here’s what happened, perp entered the garage (through an unlocked door, bc owner went back inside to get a beverage), returned, and discovered said perp, now hiding behind some boxes. Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint, but perp scampered to the door and fled, no shots fired. Police were called, description was made, report made, etc, etc, etc.

police on scene would, or could not answer his question about the use of deadly force.

he did discover the perp went through some things in the garage, but the owner was unable to determine if anything was missing.

thoughts, opinions?
Click to expand...


Per this article plus you can not use deadly force if someone just stealing something and not threatening you. (maybe in another State at night but that's another State)

Castle defined in Ohio

https://www.uslawshield.com/defining-your-castle-in-ohio/
 
lawson4 said:
State Attorneys General only publish an opinion to answer a question from a state officer
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That's the way it is in Washington state. The AG is the state government's lawyer. They don't answer public requests.

You can peruse prior AG opinions online. Sometimes what you need has already been published.
 
I've asked this before and really didn't get a good answer.

You conceal carry, you walk into a bank and the perp is standing there, with his gun out, pointing it at the teller. You say nothing, you walk up behind him and put one behind his ear..

What I would do is say something with gun out..and if he starting to swing to me, shoot. Of course, saying something 'might' result in teller getting shot..

???
 
FFGColorado said:
I've asked this before and really didn't get a good answer.

You conceal carry, you walk into a bank and the perp is standing there, with his gun out, pointing it at the teller. You say nothing, you walk up behind him and put one behind his ear..

What I would do is say something with gun out..and if he starting to swing to me, shoot. Of course, saying something 'might' result in teller getting shot..

???
Click to expand...
"The" perp?

You might get shot by his accomplice.

If not, your intervention could result in gunfire that would not otherwise have occurred.

Personally, I would not intervene, and I would try to withdraw if safely possible.
 
My limited understanding of dealing with going to court, even if you are innocent, is that you are looking at spending a small, or large, fortune defending yourself. I had two close family members who were arrested merely for observing(from their yard) and video recording the police arresting someone across the street. They ended up spending around $30K successfully defending themselves. A follow up suit against the police got settled out of court. The point is if you can avoid doing something that could land you in court, you should try. But if you got to defend yourself, that saying about being judged by 12 vs. carried by 6 applies for sure.

An umbrella liability policy doesn't hurt either.
 
Gasturbine said:
.Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.

Question is, does that extend to a non attached garage on the same owned property?
Click to expand...
"Stand your Ground" (no duty to retreat) and Castle Doctrine are tow different things.

Gasturbine said:
Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint,
Click to expand...
That is an unenforceable command.

Gasturbine said:
police on scene would, or could not answer his question about the use of deadly force
Click to expand...
Neither the Castle Doctrine nor Stand your Ground laws authorize the use of deadly force.

What they do is remove a duty to retreat.

For more explanation, read Craig_VA's Post #13.

BTW, the new law makes Ohio one of a small handful of "hard" stand your ground states. That means that a jury will be instructed to not take into account a defender's failure to retreat in considering whether his use of deadly force was reasonable.

This thread in the ST&T Sticky Library is relevant to the discussion.

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/duty-to-retreat-stand-your-ground-and-castle-doctrine.718860/"]Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine[/URL]
 
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FFGColorado said:
you walk into a bank and the perp is standing there, with his gun out, pointing it at the teller. You say nothing, you walk up behind him and put one behind his ear..
Click to expand...
Which will be great video at the trial.
Where they will bring out that more than 90% of all bank robbers are caught, and typically in less than a week. And, that with the grainy awful video most banks have, too.
And that 80% go into the bank knowing just that.
And don't wind up DRT in the process.
 
“Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint.” Really? My thoughts/opinion: Oh, dear.

Regardless of legality, that is not a best practice, for reasons of personal safety.

“Freeze” has no legal meaning, for starters.

Even in a stand-one’s-ground situation, “holding” a felon may be a different kettle of fish, legally.

Even in a stand-one’s-ground situation, “gunpoint” may be a different kettle of fish, legally.
 
Gasturbine said:
Truly asking for a friend...Ohio has recently receded duty of retreat, basically, adopted the castle law, or “stand your ground”.

Question is, does that extend to a non attached garage on the same owned property?

Here’s what happened, perp entered the garage (through an unlocked door, bc owner went back inside to get a beverage), returned, and discovered said perp, now hiding behind some boxes. Ordered him to freeze at gunpoint, but perp scampered to the door and fled, no shots fired. Police were called, description was made, report made, etc, etc, etc.

police on scene would, or could not answer his question about the use of deadly force.

he did discover the perp went through some things in the garage, but the owner was unable to determine if anything was missing.

thoughts, opinions?
Click to expand...
Hello, I've learned at The Law of Self Defense that use of deadly Force what be not justified for the person hiding in the garage and then fled on foot. Mainly because the person did not present a deadly force threat, and therefore responding with deadly force would then be "disproportionate".
 
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