tws3b2
Member
It's best not to try to understand it all. Just shoot and enjoy.
Caliber designation
- Thread starter Phil from Kansas
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bigpower491
Member
Let's not forget the 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer
Or the 17 Flintstone Eyebunger......
Or the 17 Flintstone Eyebunger......
swg1
Member
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- 428
Um no, that is how you end up buying that nice colt revolver for the great price thinking, "it's the same as 32 S&W Long" and embark on the journey of reloading heeled bullets for 32 Long Colt to make amends for ignorance. Yeah, that was me.
Keeps ya from shooting 38 Super in your Largo cuz someone on the Internet said they were the same as well. Not me.
lysanderxiii
Member
Then you have the British .280/30.
.280 - nominal bullet diameter.
30 - the rim is the same as the US .30-06.
and:
.223 Remington - bigger than the .222 Remington, but not quite as big as the .222 Remington Magnum.
.280 - nominal bullet diameter.
30 - the rim is the same as the US .30-06.
and:
.223 Remington - bigger than the .222 Remington, but not quite as big as the .222 Remington Magnum.
jmorris
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Archie
Member
Not really. The .30-03 had a bullet which weighed 220 grains and was a round nose bullet' with an advertised velocity of 2300fps. The .30-06 bullet (initially) was a 150 grain spitzer bullet at velocity of 2700 fps. The case of the .30-03 round was 65mm long, while the .30-06 case was (and still is) 63mm long. The head, body and diameter of neck is the same. I cannot find any answer to 'where' the case was shortened; I would presume in the body, leaving the shoulders and neck alone. Due to the shorter chamber, the .30-03 cartridge will not chamber in the .30-06 chamber.
The metric description of 9x19mm, 7x57mm or 7.62x39mm strikes me as rather lacking. The bore or bullet diameter and the over all length is given. But no mention if the case is straight walled, bottle necked or Klein bottle shaped.
Jim Watson
Member
As best I know, the neck is what was shortened.
Winchester 1895 .30-03s got shot with .30-06 as their intended ammo dried up.
Winchester 1895 .30-03s got shot with .30-06 as their intended ammo dried up.
And I think the 270 Winchester is based off the 30-03
Jim Watson
Member
I have seen this said, but it seems strange to use a parent case that was nearly 20 years out of issue. I wonder what you get if you feed a .30-06 into a .270 die. Does the neck extrude a bit as it is sized down?
I think its works but brass is too short, the 30-03 was longer
Vern Humphrey
Member
You can shoot .30-06 in .30-03, but the other way 'round is dangerous. With it's slightly longer neck, the .30-03 can protrude into the throat, and not have enough room to expand to release the bullet, and pressures go through the roof.
someguy2800
Member
30-03 just has a .070" longer neck and different throat cut for the round nose bullet. So it would be very dangerous to load a 30-03 case in a 30-06 chambered rifle. Yes 270 win is based on 30-03. If you make 270 brass from 30-06 the neck will be a little shorter than the listed trim length.
someguy2800
Member
beat me to it
Dave DeLaurant
Member
Although there have been attempts at relatively consistent, sensible systems for cartridge descriptions, such as the metric bullet diameter x case length + suffix if required (such as R for rimmed), even those have limitations.
For example, my two recent Rolling Block purchases are chambered for 8x58RD -- the D stands for Danish (Dansk). The extra letter suffix is because there is another, completely different 8x58R cartridge, usually referred to as the 8x58R Sauer. Though these two cartridges share the same case length and bullet diameter, they are in no way interchangable.
(not to scale)
Another problem is the dimensional equivlent of a homonym. The .38 Auto Colt Pistol cartridge is dimensionally identical to the .38 Super Auto. In fact, you can use the same case for either. They are non-interchangable because the Super is loaded considerably hotter (33K CUP vs. 23K, according to SAAMI data)
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
Another instance of this is the .38 S&W Special and the obsolete .38/44 cartridge designation. These days, a 38/44 loading would be referred to as a .38 Special +P.
My feeling is that a cartridge is given a name in the same way as a baby: each is individual. The originator initially calls it whatever he wants, and that may stick or it may morph in public parlance. I have a schoolmate whose parents gave the legal name Edward Lopez, and who is and has always been called Sam. I don't think Sam is even his middle name. One man's 380 ACP is another's 9mm Kurz.
That randomness also goes for how you pronounce a cartridge's designation. There are gunguys who have a problem saying Thirty Ought Six, insisting the zero should be said as a Nought or Oh. The reality is that it's an American cartridge and that's how Americans have refered to it for over a century and proper names don't need to make sense. George Carlin once pointed out that a guy whose name is spelled S-M-I-T-H could pronounce it Janofsky if he wanted ("All the letters are silent, never mind".)
In summary, don't look for logic when you see a cartidge name on a box of ammo -- do the research, make sure it is appropriate for your gun and savor the weirdness. If the inconsistency bothers you, comfort yourself by thinking how much it will confuse gungrabbers.
For example, my two recent Rolling Block purchases are chambered for 8x58RD -- the D stands for Danish (Dansk). The extra letter suffix is because there is another, completely different 8x58R cartridge, usually referred to as the 8x58R Sauer. Though these two cartridges share the same case length and bullet diameter, they are in no way interchangable.
(not to scale)Another problem is the dimensional equivlent of a homonym. The .38 Auto Colt Pistol cartridge is dimensionally identical to the .38 Super Auto. In fact, you can use the same case for either. They are non-interchangable because the Super is loaded considerably hotter (33K CUP vs. 23K, according to SAAMI data)
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
Another instance of this is the .38 S&W Special and the obsolete .38/44 cartridge designation. These days, a 38/44 loading would be referred to as a .38 Special +P.
My feeling is that a cartridge is given a name in the same way as a baby: each is individual. The originator initially calls it whatever he wants, and that may stick or it may morph in public parlance. I have a schoolmate whose parents gave the legal name Edward Lopez, and who is and has always been called Sam. I don't think Sam is even his middle name. One man's 380 ACP is another's 9mm Kurz.
That randomness also goes for how you pronounce a cartridge's designation. There are gunguys who have a problem saying Thirty Ought Six, insisting the zero should be said as a Nought or Oh. The reality is that it's an American cartridge and that's how Americans have refered to it for over a century and proper names don't need to make sense. George Carlin once pointed out that a guy whose name is spelled S-M-I-T-H could pronounce it Janofsky if he wanted ("All the letters are silent, never mind".)
In summary, don't look for logic when you see a cartidge name on a box of ammo -- do the research, make sure it is appropriate for your gun and savor the weirdness. If the inconsistency bothers you, comfort yourself by thinking how much it will confuse gungrabbers.
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CapnMac
Member
It's good to also remember that there was a time when firearm manufacturer routinely made proprietary ammunition for their arms. The ammo was not meant to interchange, and on purpose, so as to generate sales revenue.
Which is how many designations bear company names--Winchester, Remington, et al.
Which is also why there's a morass of cartridges like the 38 Colt in Long & short; the S&W longs & shorts; even a "Russian" designation or four. You need a cheat sheet to know which is which. How ol' Ned at the Gen'ral Store kept them organized is lost to the past.
Which is how many designations bear company names--Winchester, Remington, et al.
Which is also why there's a morass of cartridges like the 38 Colt in Long & short; the S&W longs & shorts; even a "Russian" designation or four. You need a cheat sheet to know which is which. How ol' Ned at the Gen'ral Store kept them organized is lost to the past.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Cartridges like the .38 Short Colt and the .44 S&W followed a natural progression -- they started out being loaded with heeled bullets (and full caliber for most of their length) but had to have lube on the outside -- which rubbed off, attracted grit, and so on. So they were transitioned to inside lubricated bullets (with consequent reduction in diameter), then -- because the new bullets were seated deeper and left little space for powder -- the cases were lengthened. The .38 Colt and the .44 S&W Russian were both lengthened further -- to form the .38 Special and the .44 Special.
Jim Watson
Member
Which is why I did not mention the reverse option. That and the low probability of running into a supply of very long obsolete ammo. Kind of like the frequent warnings not to shoot .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40 High Velocity intended for Winchester 1892s in your 1873 or revolver. I could not find any listing for those after 1960, and that only for .32-20, the bigger calibers out of production sooner.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Or the warmings not to use balloon-head cases in loading .45 Colt.
Archie
Member
I can see the confusion.
All I've read says the .270 Winchester is based on the .30-06 necked down to .270 size. The .30-03 round seems to have no life except for the three years between 1903 and 1906. It does not seem to exist other than that period. No rifle - other than the initial run of M1903 rifles chambered so - were chambered as .30-03; no other military and no commercial rifle.
Then the .270 Winchester as a commercial cartridge was lengthened to avoid chambering the .270 Win in a .30-06 chamber, I've read. (It seems to me as wishful thinking.) The 280 Remington is also longer than the .30-06 (according to wiki and shown as such in Ammo Encyclopedia #5). However the .270 is listed as having been developed in 1925 by which time the .30-03 was long gone. The .280 Remington was introduced in 1957; also long after the .30-03 was scrapped.
All sources I've checked agree the .270, the 280 are the same basic case as the .30-06. Wiki claims the .30-03 as the parent case. I find basing the 1925 development of the .270 from a case discontinued some nineteen years earlier unlikely.
Mosin77
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- Oct 7, 2019
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“.30-06 is a great round. Let’s neck it down and squeeze out some more velocity and a flatter trajectory.”
“Uhh, this is really sweet but we need it just a titch longer.”
“Let’s dust off the dies for .30-03 and do a run, and try it on that case. Wasn’t it a hair longer than the ‘06?”
“Great idea Joe, I knew there had to be a simple solution.”
Phantom 309
Member
Yep. One of the things I learned today is that the R indicates a rimmed case. I assumed that stood for "russian"
Vern Humphrey
Member
Some M1895 Winchesters were chambered in .30-03
Archie
Member
Okay. How long were they made that way? That same question might be worded as 'How many were made?' How long past the change from '03 to '06 were they made?
lysanderxiii
Member
The shoulder location of the .270 Winchester is at the same place as it is on the .30-06. On both the shoulder starts at 1.948" from the base. The .270 Winchester is slightly longer because the shoulder is the same angle but the neck is smaller in diameter, so there is extra material that needs to go somewhere when you resize the case to the smaller neck diameter.
EDIT: the length stamped on the headspace gauge of a .270 Win is longer than that stamped on a .30-06 because the .270 Win uses a reference diameter of .375" versus the .440" of the .30-06. If you measure a .30-06 case to a .375" reference diameter you get the same length - 2.0526" for both (check out the SAAMI drawings).
.280 Remington has the shoulder moved forward 0.050", so it cannot be chambered in the .270 Winchester barrel.
If you shot a .270 Win in a .30-06, nothing really bad would happen, and you aren't going to force a .308 bullet into a .277" hole, so the .30-06 in a .270 Win is not a problem.
However, you might be able to jam a .284" diameter bullet into a .277" hole if you really try, which is why .270 Win is the same as .30-06 and .280 Rem is a little longer.
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