Riot Defense

Hartkopf said:

Many good points, the best is avoidance. It’s good to see experts spell out how these riots work, with scouts, radios, tactics that don’t involve shooting. They want YOU to shoot first so they can mow you down. But of course if you don’t shoot, you get beat almost to death. Avoidance is the only way to go.

On the down side, we have an expert telling us to let the mob rule. The mob has read this and is now even more emboldened. This new domestic terrorist group will have to be defeated at the point of its organization, not in the streets where normal every day people get their lives ruined.

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(Please see me as speaking in a non-argumentative “tone.”) I do not see that the author was telling readers to “let the mob rule.” I see it as advising people how to stay alive if they find themselves in a place where the mob already rules, even if only locally and temporarily. A well-planned, well-placed ambush can defeat a better-prepared, better-organized, better-equipped force, if that force walks/drives into the ambush.

There are, probably, THR members who could bail out and explosively defeat an ANTIFAmbush at close range. I am reasonably certain that such folks would not choose a shorty shotgun-ish “Other Firearm” for the task, unless constrained by some specific local laws or rules. The article specifically “picked on” this type of weapon, giving specific reasons. The article specifically mentioned what the author chooses to carry, and why. It does not seem that the author plans to surrender to a mob. (I I were planning a surrender, I would want NO weapons on or about my person.)

NIGHTLORD40K said:

As distasteful as it is, you may be better off stuffing your go bag with a BLM jacket and a giant hammer and sickle face mask than an M4.

Pop a couple of pesticidic fogger bombs, don your "woke urban youth" pattern camo and try to blend in with the crowd until you get far enough away to throw the cursed rags in the trash and walk home.

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Or get in there and go totally false flag. Not recommending this, just spitballing.

Rexster said:

(Please see me as speaking in a non-argumentative “tone.”) I do not see that the author was telling readers to “let the mob rule.” I see it as advising people how to stay alive if they find themselves in a place where the mob already rules, even if only locally and temporarily. A well-planned, well-placed ambush can defeat a better-prepared, better-organized, better-equipped force, if that force walks/drives into the ambush.

There are, probably, THR members who could bail out and explosively defeat an ANTIFAmbush at close range. I am reasonably certain that such folks would not choose a shorty shotgun-ish “Other Firearm” for the task, unless constrained by some specific local laws or rules. The article specifically “picked on” this type of weapon, giving specific reasons. The article specifically mentioned what the author chooses to carry, and why. It does not seem that the author plans to surrender to a mob. (I I were planning a surrender, I would want NO weapons on or about my person.)

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By avoidance we are letting the mob rule. Greg advocates avoidance (and I agree because we can’t win that game). He did not say surrender and I would guess he doesn’t want a surrender. As I said, we will have to defeat the mob at the point of organization. (Since most of it is not organic protests)


I knew before reading the article that we cannot get out of our cars and fight organized rioters. It’s just sad to see an expert confirming this. There’s is nothing we can do but watch it burn from a distance.

Hartkopf said:

By avoidance we are letting the mob rule. Greg advocates avoidance (and I agree because we can’t win that game). He did not say surrender and I would guess he doesn’t want a surrender. As I said, we will have to defeat the mob at the point of organization. (Since most of it is not organic protests)


I knew before reading the article that we cannot get out of our cars and fight organized rioters. It’s just sad to see an expert confirming this. There’s is nothing we can do but watch it burn from a distance.

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A disciplined and determined defender, with appropriate level of realistic training, could certainly wreck an ANTIFAmbush, but the ambush would be best attacked from outside, in a defense-of-third-party scenario. There are four adults in our household, three of whom have had some level of firearms training, and three operational vehicles, so, one driver might become caught in a situation, while the following vehicle is not yet within the situation. The rescuer would have to stay clear of the ambush, for best effect, and to avoid being shot in the back, or flanks. I do not want to take this discussion off-topic, or into areas not permitted in this forum, so will stop here. (The article did not go there, so I will not go there.)

A Serbian photographer immigrated to the USA, during or after the nasty war in the 1990s. He moved easily among the gangs and addicts in NYC, quickly gaining their trust, documenting them, in images, that were later published in a book. I remember what he said, during an interview, which is paraphrased as “I did not sound like something they hated.”

As I see it, one need not look like BLM/ANTIFA, to lessen the chances of a beat-down. One should, however, avoid looking/sounding like what they hate. And, please, when they dangle their bait, do not swallow it, hook, line, and sinker.

On an individual level, once caught up in an aggressive mob, its foolish to think you're going to fight your way out of that. In many cases you probably aren't going to have much luck driving out of it either. It doesn't take much to disable a modern car these days. I for one, don't have anything on my car, or dress in a way that would make me a target to any group either left wing or right wing. No bumper stickers, no logos or statements on my clothing. Nothing.

Rexster said:

A Serbian photographer immigrated to the USA, during or after the nasty war in the 1990s. He moved easily among the gangs and addicts in NYC, quickly gaining their trust, documenting them, in images, that were later published in a book. I remember what he said, during an interview, which is paraphrased as “I did not sound like something they hated.”

As I see it, one need not look like BLM/ANTIFA, to lessen the chances of a beat-down. One should, however, avoid looking/sounding like what they hate. And, please, when they dangle their bait, do not swallow it, hook, line, and sinker.

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Ya, unless I undergo a radical pigmentation and gender reassignment, Im going to look and sound like something they hate whether I like it or not.

I like how he walks back his decision on the shockwave. I personally don't like the weapon. I still feel an AR like a pistol version or an SBR would be much better. I also like the assessment of the handgun with the ability of using your off hand defensively. I'd go for the Glock 45 or 17 over the 19. Full size grip means your pinky isn't hanging off the end should you get in a struggle over it, and you have the extra 2 rounds. Most of all I like the overall "stay away" advice he ends up coming away with. This has long been my thoughts on the best way to deal with these mobs. (Well, other than direct military action. This is, after all, a threat to the security of out nation.) No way in hell I agree with his "mild" terror assessment. Nothing mild about it. These people are out for blood.

My take is this...

1. Stay the hell away, unless absolutely necessary. Just don't go there. (You're unlikely to win the battle, and almost certain to get prosecuted if you do.)

If you have to, and you get mobbed...

2. Drive away, around, through, or over the crowd to get away. (That guy he used as an example was sitting in a 6,000 pound 300 horsepower weapon.)

Everything I read In that article seemed pretty “common sense” to me.

The only exception I would take is I think he gives the rioters to much credit, saying they don’t want to kill people and they want us to lose our cool, worrying about public sentiment. I doubt they’ve given any of that any thought. Their thought process is likely “a mile wide and an inch deep” as the saying goes.
And really none of that matters if you find yourself in their midst, like i said it seems like common sense.

It may sound like common sense....
But “common sense” is like a rare superpower it seems, and deserves to be spelled out every now and again.

Avoidance is always the best answer unless your job description involves looking for trouble.

At the height of last summer's rioting aka "peaceful protests" I watched as much news as I could stand. Not for what the talking heads determined as "fact" but for where protests were planned. Cities and states that had planned protests for one reason or another. I made sure to avoid those areas. At one point I had an important doctor's appointment that would have been a few blocks from a courthouse where a protest was scheduled, I pushed back the appointment 4 months just so I wouldn't be there.

I live out in the middle of nowhere so I didn't worry to the point of throwing an AR in the vehicle. It was considered a handful of times but never got to being done.

A road layout in a local town I am going to describe is fairly similar in RegularCity USA. It has always been a 'connector road', from one thoroughfare to another. It is approximately 3 miles long, all crossroads are lights, some grocery stores / $ Stores but 75% residential. There is a well used park dead center and on one side...

NO ONE THINKS AHEAD. ''Well, the kids playing on the b-ball courts must've spilled over...'' ''there's no party scheduled this weekend (??)...'' no, it could be a MOB. turn around, NOW.

Regular Joe & Joette , having no training or previous mil service or other sit awareness skills, what they see goes into the brainpan and gets lodged into the ''this does not compute'' file. All the while inching towards the suspicious activity. Even as simple as, ''there is a wreck ahead, ambulances, fire trucks. 4,5, 7 cruisers. Let's see if we can get through though...''


MY IMHO? Preach it, teach it; if it smells bad don't eat it, if the ad says 10% returns don't invest it; if it even HINTS of looking bad--turn around.

YMMV

Kleanbore said:

One more time, that is off topic.

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You may have misinterpreted Hartkopf's intention. I believe that he is referring to the "organization/s" that control and run BLM and antifa. He said:

As I said, we will have to defeat the mob at the point of organization. (Since most of it is not organic protests)

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Defeat those control groups and you defeat the mobs. It's the old "cut the head of the snake" problem.

That was an interesting article. I will still carry a shotgun in addition to the handgun and I like the suggestion of bear repellent.

I do not carry a long gun in my car but if I do, it would be meant for defense of a secondary attack or an extended attack where I may have taken cover in a ditch or culvert or alleyway. It’s not really my thing and I don’t see the need in my current environment. From the drivers seat, I can’t see the need for a long gun.

GEM said:

Took a couple of car tactics classes - now they weren't for mobs but interesting. Shot through windows out, into windows, exited cars with alacrity and engaging targets. Leaving the car quickly into gravel is an ouch. Got some rainbowed colored forearms which were impressive at work. It was more small numbers of attackers. Driving and shooting - you use your own car. Had stick at that time - that was interesting. Shooting through the windshield and how to hit something. Used a junk car for that - not mine.

One tidbit, side windows are supposed to break into little pieces. Yes, but with tinted windows, the membrane holds all the little pieces together. Doesn't fall out. Also it is very loud, of course with muffs on.

Another interesting thing, we thought a slug would go right through the door. They usually did but some hit a structural something and the slug went straight down into the ground. Shooting under cars, you could skip rounds into someone and they could do that to you.

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Some Oldie but Goodie tidbits and lessons that will likely seem brand new to many of today's younger cops and "tactical enthusiast" shooters.

I chuckled when I attended an instructor update a few years before my retirement, at one of the ranges at a larger outside agency, and the "let's shoot in & around veh's" portion of one of the days came around. It involved a nice patrol veh for the agency, and we were repeatedly admonished not to shoot up their nice car. We could shoot from inside (but not through any glass), and rapidly de-ass the pass/side and shoot over/around it.

Trusting.