Riot Defense

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by GEM, May 21, 2021.

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  1. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    (Please see me as speaking in a non-argumentative “tone.”) I do not see that the author was telling readers to “let the mob rule.” I see it as advising people how to stay alive if they find themselves in a place where the mob already rules, even if only locally and temporarily. A well-planned, well-placed ambush can defeat a better-prepared, better-organized, better-equipped force, if that force walks/drives into the ambush.

    There are, probably, THR members who could bail out and explosively defeat an ANTIFAmbush at close range. I am reasonably certain that such folks would not choose a shorty shotgun-ish “Other Firearm” for the task, unless constrained by some specific local laws or rules. The article specifically “picked on” this type of weapon, giving specific reasons. The article specifically mentioned what the author chooses to carry, and why. It does not seem that the author plans to surrender to a mob. (I I were planning a surrender, I would want NO weapons on or about my person.)
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
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  2. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Or get in there and go totally false flag. :evil: Not recommending this, just spitballing.
     
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  3. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    By avoidance we are letting the mob rule. Greg advocates avoidance (and I agree because we can’t win that game). He did not say surrender and I would guess he doesn’t want a surrender. As I said, we will have to defeat the mob at the point of organization. (Since most of it is not organic protests)


    I knew before reading the article that we cannot get out of our cars and fight organized rioters. It’s just sad to see an expert confirming this. There’s is nothing we can do but watch it burn from a distance.
     
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  4. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    A disciplined and determined defender, with appropriate level of realistic training, could certainly wreck an ANTIFAmbush, but the ambush would be best attacked from outside, in a defense-of-third-party scenario. There are four adults in our household, three of whom have had some level of firearms training, and three operational vehicles, so, one driver might become caught in a situation, while the following vehicle is not yet within the situation. The rescuer would have to stay clear of the ambush, for best effect, and to avoid being shot in the back, or flanks. I do not want to take this discussion off-topic, or into areas not permitted in this forum, so will stop here. (The article did not go there, so I will not go there.)
     
  5. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    A Serbian photographer immigrated to the USA, during or after the nasty war in the 1990s. He moved easily among the gangs and addicts in NYC, quickly gaining their trust, documenting them, in images, that were later published in a book. I remember what he said, during an interview, which is paraphrased as “I did not sound like something they hated.”

    As I see it, one need not look like BLM/ANTIFA, to lessen the chances of a beat-down. One should, however, avoid looking/sounding like what they hate. And, please, when they dangle their bait, do not swallow it, hook, line, and sinker.
     
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  6. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    How so?

    How can avoiding contact enhance mob rule?
    One more time, that is off topic.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  7. shafter

    shafter Member

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    On an individual level, once caught up in an aggressive mob, its foolish to think you're going to fight your way out of that. In many cases you probably aren't going to have much luck driving out of it either. It doesn't take much to disable a modern car these days. I for one, don't have anything on my car, or dress in a way that would make me a target to any group either left wing or right wing. No bumper stickers, no logos or statements on my clothing. Nothing.
     
  8. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Ya, unless I undergo a radical pigmentation and gender reassignment, Im going to look and sound like something they hate whether I like it or not.
     
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  9. rust collector
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    rust collector Moderator Staff Member

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    This seems to go back to the situational awareness concept. Keep a lookout, and don't head for the smoke and flashing lights. Greg's position seems valid to me. It's not an action movie, and when someone does attempt to shoot their way out there will be unintended consequences. There will be many ways to catch up to perpetrators if the political will is there, and if it isn't the electorate will register its unhappiness.

    We are living in a strange time when thugs are encouraged and victims are blamed. It should be survivable with the appropriate planning, fortitude and a bit of good fortune.
     
  10. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    I like how he walks back his decision on the shockwave. I personally don't like the weapon. I still feel an AR like a pistol version or an SBR would be much better. I also like the assessment of the handgun with the ability of using your off hand defensively. I'd go for the Glock 45 or 17 over the 19. Full size grip means your pinky isn't hanging off the end should you get in a struggle over it, and you have the extra 2 rounds. Most of all I like the overall "stay away" advice he ends up coming away with. This has long been my thoughts on the best way to deal with these mobs. (Well, other than direct military action. This is, after all, a threat to the security of out nation.) No way in hell I agree with his "mild" terror assessment. Nothing mild about it. These people are out for blood.

    My take is this...

    1. Stay the hell away, unless absolutely necessary. Just don't go there. (You're unlikely to win the battle, and almost certain to get prosecuted if you do.)

    If you have to, and you get mobbed...

    2. Drive away, around, through, or over the crowd to get away. (That guy he used as an example was sitting in a 6,000 pound 300 horsepower weapon.)
     
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  11. DeepSouth
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    DeepSouth Contributing Member

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    Everything I read In that article seemed pretty “common sense” to me.

    The only exception I would take is I think he gives the rioters to much credit, saying they don’t want to kill people and they want us to lose our cool, worrying about public sentiment. I doubt they’ve given any of that any thought. Their thought process is likely “a mile wide and an inch deep” as the saying goes.
    And really none of that matters if you find yourself in their midst, like i said it seems like common sense.
     
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  12. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    It may sound like common sense....
    But “common sense” is like a rare superpower it seems, and deserves to be spelled out every now and again.
     
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  13. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    While I don't know the intelligence and planning of every group, the idea of evoking an over response from authorities and/or the public is well known in the literature of insurgent groups. For example, you find it in the writings of the Algerian rebels against the French and many others.
     
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  14. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Avoidance is always the best answer unless your job description involves looking for trouble.
     
  15. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    At the height of last summer's rioting aka "peaceful protests" I watched as much news as I could stand. Not for what the talking heads determined as "fact" but for where protests were planned. Cities and states that had planned protests for one reason or another. I made sure to avoid those areas. At one point I had an important doctor's appointment that would have been a few blocks from a courthouse where a protest was scheduled, I pushed back the appointment 4 months just so I wouldn't be there.

    I live out in the middle of nowhere so I didn't worry to the point of throwing an AR in the vehicle. It was considered a handful of times but never got to being done.
     
  16. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    A road layout in a local town I am going to describe is fairly similar in RegularCity USA. It has always been a 'connector road', from one thoroughfare to another. It is approximately 3 miles long, all crossroads are lights, some grocery stores / $ Stores but 75% residential. There is a well used park dead center and on one side...

    NO ONE THINKS AHEAD. ''Well, the kids playing on the b-ball courts must've spilled over...'' ''there's no party scheduled this weekend (??)...'' no, it could be a MOB. turn around, NOW.

    Regular Joe & Joette , having no training or previous mil service or other sit awareness skills, what they see goes into the brainpan and gets lodged into the ''this does not compute'' file. All the while inching towards the suspicious activity. Even as simple as, ''there is a wreck ahead, ambulances, fire trucks. 4,5, 7 cruisers. Let's see if we can get through though...''


    MY IMHO? Preach it, teach it; if it smells bad don't eat it, if the ad says 10% returns don't invest it; if it even HINTS of looking bad--turn around.

    YMMV
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't stop that now.
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Turning around - not a riot but here's a story.

    Went to an ethnic Mom and Pop restaurant in a so-so neighborhood one night with friends. We stayed late. It was in a one way alternating grid. One the way home, I stop at a light with a car in front of me. Two guys come out of the corner bar fighting. They land on the car in front of me. The driver rolls down window and yells: Hey, what ya doin'.

    One guy takes the other's head and says: I will show you. - Then he bashes into the windshield a few times. At this time, a gaggle of folks exit the bar like a Frankenstein movie mob, yelling and screaming and heading for the fray.

    I look at the floor of my car and see a lever that says: "R". Activating that in a rapid U - even though it was on a oneway street - no traffic behind me, I zap to a side street and continue on my way. Cross the river and go home to sit on the couch and burp.
     
  19. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    You may have misinterpreted Hartkopf's intention. I believe that he is referring to the "organization/s" that control and run BLM and antifa. He said:
    Defeat those control groups and you defeat the mobs. It's the old "cut the head of the snake" problem.
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That would be a great strategy, but the topic of the OP was about what not to do RE: engaging mobs
     
  21. Kevin Keith

    Kevin Keith Member

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    That was an interesting article. I will still carry a shotgun in addition to the handgun and I like the suggestion of bear repellent.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  22. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Who in the carry a long gun in the vehicle camp has any real life experience in actually employing it from the confines of the vehicle?

    Where are you carrying it where it’s actually accessible from the drivers seat?

    Are you going to always have a partner in your vehicle to literally ride shotgun?

    Enquiring minds want to know how you plan to solve those very real tactical problems….
     
  23. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    I do not carry a long gun in my car but if I do, it would be meant for defense of a secondary attack or an extended attack where I may have taken cover in a ditch or culvert or alleyway. It’s not really my thing and I don’t see the need in my current environment. From the drivers seat, I can’t see the need for a long gun.
     
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  24. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Took a couple of car tactics classes - now they weren't for mobs but interesting. Shot through windows out, into windows, exited cars with alacrity and engaging targets. Leaving the car quickly into gravel is an ouch. Got some rainbowed colored forearms which were impressive at work. It was more small numbers of attackers. Driving and shooting - you use your own car. Had stick at that time - that was interesting. Shooting through the windshield and how to hit something. Used a junk car for that - not mine.

    One tidbit, side windows are supposed to break into little pieces. Yes, but with tinted windows, the membrane holds all the little pieces together. Doesn't fall out. Also it is very loud, of course with muffs on.

    Another interesting thing, we thought a slug would go right through the door. They usually did but some hit a structural something and the slug went straight down into the ground. Shooting under cars, you could skip rounds into someone and they could do that to you.
     
  25. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Some Oldie but Goodie tidbits and lessons that will likely seem brand new to many of today's younger cops and "tactical enthusiast" shooters.

    I chuckled when I attended an instructor update a few years before my retirement, at one of the ranges at a larger outside agency, and the "let's shoot in & around veh's" portion of one of the days came around. It involved a nice patrol veh for the agency, and we were repeatedly admonished not to shoot up their nice car. :) We could shoot from inside (but not through any glass), and rapidly de-ass the pass/side and shoot over/around it.

    Trusting. :rofl:
     
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