Kitchen Table Dealer article

This whole can of worms of "kitchen-table dealers" transferring firearms to prohibited persons, as well as all other arguments about private sale "loopholes" etc etc can be solved so easily by opening up NICS to everyone regardless of license that one can only conclude resolving the stated problems aren't the main goal.

Just another hit piece lumping all the legally operating dealers into another category to be whittled away when in fact it comes down to two very simple things:

Some dealers did not follow the rules - though again, they are also tossing clerical errors in with criminal behavior.

The regulating body is not doing its job sufficiently.


As usual, the media is taking the very bureaucracy's admission of ineptitude as an example of how there is something inherently wrong with the overall system. This is almost like retroactively applying a microscope to an activity in a way to gin-up a perception. Rather an exceptionally passive *Fast&Furious* sort of scenario - to my mind.

The system works when the system is WORKED!

It'd be like traffic Cops standing around doing nothing but watching while folk drove like jerks and then the same Cops jumping up at the accident sights screaming about how the problem is in drivers' licensing parameters. "Something needs to be done!" screamed by the entity that is already supposed to be doing the *doing* is the fodder of community-agitators and back-of-the-room activists.

This whole licensing thing will be the next *gun show loophole* as soon as they all agree on a catchy phrase to use for the low-information, 24 hour news cycle viewers and headline repeating Karens.

Todd.

Media will do whatever they can to drum up clicks and reads by demonizing gun sellers and gun owners. It’s the low hanging fruit in the “reporters” orchard.

However, if the licensed sellers did their jobs properly and toed the line (especially with the paperwork!), this would be a non-issue. The FFL who was questioning the repeat-repeat buyer about his apparent buying and reselling had plenty of reasons to refuse sales or ask that customer to use another dealer. That alone would’ve helped his defense being the respondent in the civil suit when the reseller sold the gun he bought from the FFL to the clown. The argument that he “knew or should have known” about the suspected illegal purchases will be a killer to his bank account.

My FFL operates out of his converted garage. I answer the same questions, fill out the same State and Federal paperwork and wait the same ten-days for pickup approval that I do at any chain store... it just doesn’t take me two hours or more to do it.

Stay safe.

"Blaming an inanimate object for human misbehavior is silly."

Criminal indictments should be addressed to those who violate the law. The actual murderer AND the illegal supplier of the weapon, or auto, or shoes, etc. Laws should not be directed toward others of the same type of business without further thought. This 'association' idea would extend to those who own their own private business, those with a second job, those who have a commercial enterprise run from their own residence, etc...

The term "kitchen table dealer" is a device of the left to vilify small FFL holders; much in the same nature as "Saturday night special" - which seems to be fading from use.

In 1985 I worked with a kitchen table dealer. He chose his clients, you had to have a relationship with him to order a gun through him. I was on his list, and was ready to order. Found a gun in Shotgun News and talked with him about it. He told me that he had surrendered his license.

There had been a shooting at a local junior high, a student had killed the principal and wounded two teachers with a M1A. My coworker had sold the gun to the student's father. The ATF visited him the day after the shooting. The sale was completely legal per the ATF rules. The student spent time in juvenile prison, released on his 21st birthday. The father, who should have been charged, was not. But the ATF came down on the dealer with a vengeance. Threatened to imprison his wife and take custody of his children. His attorney told him there was only way out, to surrender his license.

The ATF was out of control 40 years ago, and things haven't gotten any better.

This caught my eye. I wonder if ATF admitted this or it’s just more “editorial license” (aka BS)

“These dealers are often targeted by the ATF since they don’t invest in the same inventory tracking and security – treating their business as a hobby – and don’t fight Department of Justice attorneys with the same vigor established chains or stores have displayed in revocation examinations over the past several decades.”

Jesse Heywood said:

In 1985 I worked with a kitchen table dealer. He chose his clients, you had to have a relationship with him to order a gun through him. I was on his list, and was ready to order. Found a gun in Shotgun News and talked with him about it. He told me that he had surrendered his license.

There had been a shooting at a local junior high, a student had killed the principal and wounded two teachers with a M1A. My coworker had sold the gun to the student's father. The ATF visited him the day after the shooting. The sale was completely legal per the ATF rules. The student spent time in juvenile prison, released on his 21st birthday. The father, who should have been charged, was not. But the ATF came down on the dealer with a vengeance. Threatened to imprison his wife and take custody of his children. His attorney told him there was only way out, to surrender his license.

The ATF was out of control 40 years ago, and things haven't gotten any better.

Click to expand...

A couple who were friends of mine owned the local gun store where the straw buyer went in solo, lied on the State DROS and 4473 forms stating he was the buyer, then gave the “California compliant” AR-15’s to the December 2nd shooters in San Bernardino, Ca. Those zealots altered the guns, bought (illegal in Ca.) 30 round magazines and killed the people who worked with the male half.

You better believe the BATFE, State DOJ, FBI and every other alphabet agency crawled into every nook, cranny and orifice with a microscope looking for one reason to imprison them both. They ran a clean ship, but the pressure put on them was brutal.

Within 18 months Anne and Jerry aged about ten years each. After the stress all that caused they (sadly) sold their store to another guy and retired.

Stay safe.

Riomouse911 said:

A couple who were friends of mine owned the local gun store where the straw buyer went in solo, lied on the State DROS and 4473 forms stating he was the buyer, then gave the “California compliant” AR-15’s to the December 2nd shooters in San Bernardino, Ca. Those zealots altered the guns, bought (illegal in Ca.) 30 round magazines and killed the people who worked with the male half.

You better believe the BATFE, State DOJ, FBI and every other alphabet agency crawled into every nook, cranny and orifice with a microscope looking for one reason to imprison them both. They ran a clean ship, but the pressure put on them was brutal.

Within 18 months Anne and Jerry aged about ten years each. After the stress all that caused they (sadly) sold their store to another guy and retired.

Stay safe.

Click to expand...

Small world,,,, my wife worked with the shooters sister. Alphabet .gov crawled around there too. The sister was on TV a few times deflecting. Riverside/Corona area.

My wife had left the job for another just a few months before it all happened.


If I remember right, the straw buyer was was married to the shooters wife's sister or the shooters sister. Charges of sham marriages for immigration reasons were thrown around too.

wiscoaster said:

This whole can of worms of "kitchen-table dealers" transferring firearms to prohibited persons, as well as all other arguments about private sale "loopholes" etc etc can be solved so easily by opening up NICS to everyone regardless of license that one can only conclude resolving the stated problems aren't the main goal.

Click to expand...

This kitchen table dealer did not himself sell to prohibited persons. ATF is claiming he knew that a guy to whom he sold was turning them around and selling them to prohibited persons. 94 guns to one person over the course of a year does seem like a lot, but does that prove he knew the other guy was reselling?

Jesse Heywood said:

In 1985 I worked with a kitchen table dealer. He chose his clients, you had to have a relationship with him to order a gun through him. I was on his list, and was ready to order. Found a gun in Shotgun News and talked with him about it. He told me that he had surrendered his license.

There had been a shooting at a local junior high, a student had killed the principal and wounded two teachers with a M1A. My coworker had sold the gun to the student's father. The ATF visited him the day after the shooting. The sale was completely legal per the ATF rules. The student spent time in juvenile prison, released on his 21st birthday. The father, who should have been charged, was not. But the ATF came down on the dealer with a vengeance. Threatened to imprison his wife and take custody of his children. His attorney told him there was only way out, to surrender his license.

The ATF was out of control 40 years ago, and things haven't gotten any better.

Click to expand...

That's a TERRIBLE story. The dealer didn't do anything wrong!!!

twarr1 said:

This caught my eye. I wonder if ATF admitted this or it’s just more “editorial license” (aka BS)

“These dealers are often targeted by the ATF since they don’t invest in the same inventory tracking and security – treating their business as a hobby – and don’t fight Department of Justice attorneys with the same vigor established chains or stores have displayed in revocation examinations over the past several decades.”

Click to expand...

The second part (and don’t fight Department of Justice attorneys with the same vigor established chains or stores have displayed in revocation examinations over the past several decades) is likely true, they aren't gonna be able to afford the legal fees.

Riomouse911 said:

A couple who were friends of mine owned the local gun store where the straw buyer went in solo, lied on the State DROS and 4473 forms stating he was the buyer, then gave the “California compliant” AR-15’s to the December 2nd shooters in San Bernardino, Ca. Those zealots altered the guns, bought (illegal in Ca.) 30 round magazines and killed the people who worked with the male half.

You better believe the BATFE, State DOJ, FBI and every other alphabet agency crawled into every nook, cranny and orifice with a microscope looking for one reason to imprison them both. They ran a clean ship, but the pressure put on them was brutal.

Within 18 months Anne and Jerry aged about ten years each. After the stress all that caused they (sadly) sold their store to another guy and retired.

Stay safe.

Click to expand...

Did ATF prosecute the straw purchaser for lying on the 4473?

hso said:

An FFL need only suspect that a straw purchase is taking place to deny the sale. Selling 94 guns, many of the same type, to one person in one year would be an indication of not just one, but many straw purchases were being made.

Click to expand...

I missed "many of the same type" in the story.

twarr1 said:

This caught my eye. I wonder if ATF admitted this or it’s just more “editorial license” (aka BS)

“These dealers are often targeted by the ATF since they don’t invest in the same inventory tracking and security – treating their business as a hobby – and don’t fight Department of Justice attorneys with the same vigor established chains or stores have displayed in revocation examinations over the past several decades.”

Click to expand...

The point; The ATF prioritizing those that don't have resources to defend themselves is wrong.

old lady new shooter said:

....but does that prove he knew the other guy was reselling?

Click to expand...

No, it does not, but ATF doesn't need proof before they're going to pay a visit. I don't recall the name but there's a YouTube video put up by a guy that sold only a few guns privately that got a personal visit at his residence from ATF agents and a discussion that resulted in a formal letter threatening prosecution for dealing without a license if he sold any more. He decided he really didn't need to sell any more. An individual can't fight their resources when the burden of proof is on the accused proving their innocence, and that's the reality of the current enforcement climate wrt to firearms.

hso said:

An FFL need only suspect that a straw purchase is taking place to deny the sale. Selling 94 guns, many of the same type, to one person in one year would be an indication of not just one, but many straw purchases were being made.

Click to expand...

What is the standard of proof that will apply to the prosecution of the kitchen table seller? If it's "beyond a reasonable doubt", I don't see how an "indication" is going to cut it.

I do remember a story someone here once posted about selling multiples of the same gun to a guy who was going to give each of his employees one as I think a Christmas present.

wiscoaster said:

No, it does not, but ATF doesn't need proof before they're going to pay a visit. I don't recall the name but there's a YouTube video put up by a guy that sold only a few guns privately that got a personal visit at his residence from ATF agents and a discussion that resulted in a formal letter threatening prosecution for dealing without a license if he sold any more. He decided he really didn't need to sell any more.

Click to expand...

I am curious to know, how do they differentiate between a person who owns several guns and decides to sell a couple of them that they never shoot any more, vs a small dealer?

old lady new shooter said:

Did ATF prosecute the straw purchaser for lying on the 4473?

Click to expand...

Yes

danez71 said:

Small world,,,, my wife worked with the shooters sister. Alphabet .gov crawled around there too. The sister was on TV a few times deflecting. Riverside/Corona area.

My wife had left the job for another just a few months before it all happened.


If I remember right, the straw buyer was was married to the shooters wife's sister or the shooters sister. Charges of sham marriages for immigration reasons were thrown around too.

Click to expand...

Yes, there was a web of stuff going on with them outside of this event.

I sat in the local police station with a senior DDA and we watched the sister and his mother being interviewed by the FBI that night. We were there to assess the case and potential criminal culpability of these two women in case the feds did not take the case. Since the feds did keep it, and there was no criminal case that could be made against either of these two because there really was no evidence they knew anything, our involvement ended at that point.

I took part in a holiday party in that very room where the shooting took place the year prior..one of my good friends was the sergeant who first began chasing them and exchanged shots, I had one of my guys working for me exchange shots with them at the final gun battle scene, two guys who now work for me (they lateraled over after) were big parts of their last stand and the IRC interior search and rescue, other friends were captured in published images, two of my guys worked at the FBI computer lab that had the iPhone that apple refused to unlock, etc.

It is sometimes very creepy to be involved with awful cases that gave an international impact, even in a small way like I personally was.

Stay safe.

old lady new shooter said:

I am curious to know, how do they differentiate between a person who owns several guns and decides to sell a couple of them that they never shoot any more, vs a small dealer?

Click to expand...

I don't know. Color me curious as well. Maybe they've got watchers at gun shows posing as shoppers?

Is it better to post personal no-longer-wanted firearms on gunbroker?