BATF set up a table at the Abilene Show

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hobbeeman

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http://www.reporternews.com/news/2010/mar/28/dealers-collectors-show-wares-at-gun-knife-show/


ReporterNews- Abilene Online
Gun enthusiasts from around the state filed through the Abilene Civic Center over the weekend as gun dealers and collectors displayed their firearms, knives and holsters during the Texas Gun and Knife Association show.

Smattered among the rows of rifles, pistols, knives and holsters were other individuals displaying things like jewelry, toys, custom-made gun cases, a few blowgun sets — and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms.

Gun Show promoter Don Hill and his wife, Janice, are from Kerrville, and they have been putting on these types of shows across Texas for about 32 years. Hill normally promotes a show in Abilene three to four times a year.

“The guys at the Abilene Civic Center make my job so much easier,” said Hill. “I really just love Abilene.”

Hill said he estimated 2,000 people were at the show Saturday and about half of that number Sunday. Of those participating, a few hundred would be from out of town. He also added that he thought his shows were good for Abilene’s economy since it brought in traffic from other areas and that those people would need hotel rooms and would be frequenting local restaurants.

While this weekend’s event was about par as far as participation was concerned, Hill said purchases had slowed a little since last year, when the current administration had some gun owners worried what new gun control laws might be passed, thereby driving up the volume of gun and ammunition sales.

But since President Barack Obama took office, little effort has been made to curtail ownership of firearms, and this has put some firearms enthusiasts at ease, Hill said.

“Obama’s probably not going to do anything openly because of public sentiment,” he said.

Jerry Stayton, owner of Jerry’s Gun Shop in Dudley, had one of the larger displays at this gun show, with about 18 tables. He is a federally licensed firearms dealer and he said he has been setting up at the local shows for about 5 years.

“I think some people were doing some panic buying then because they didn’t know what was going to be next,” said Stayton.

Instead of hoarding certain types of ammunition or specific weapons these days, folks were just looking for a little bit of everything.

New to this particular gun show was a table set up by representatives of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, which Hill said, made some participants uncomfortable.

According to Hill, one of his merchants was set up with about 81 firearms. When confronted by the ATF about his status as a federal dealer, the merchant responded that the weapons were part of his personal collection, but that he had filed an application to be a federally licensed dealer.

After the conversation with the ATF, the individual decided to leave.

“If we’re doing something illegal here, why are they letting us do it?” Hill said.

One of the issues unique to the gun show circuit is licensing. One merchant may be set up with a federal dealer’s license, but next to him may be another selling as a personal collector.

The licensed dealer is required by federal law to complete background checks on buyers, whereas the private collector selling his firearms at the next table does not — enabling that merchant to possibly sell a firearm to an individual who is restricted from owning them.

The licensed dealer must also collect sales tax, something the unlicensed dealer is not required to do.

“The ATF is here doing their job, and their main purpose is to make sure the people who walk out of the show with a weapon are supposed to have a weapon,” Stayton said. “I mean, there are a lot of people running around out there with guns who really don’t need to be. That’s why some of the gun shows are getting a bad reputation.”

When asked if setting up a table at gun shows was something new, the ATF representative, who would not divulge her name, said that doing so was customary but that it had never been done in Abilene before. She said the ATF had always had a limited presence at gun shows but that her purpose there was educational only.

Displayed on the ATF table were computer CDs with current gun laws and other educational items, including information about how to become a federally licensed firearms dealer. The ATF representative refused further comment except to reiterate that the ATF’s presence was nothing new and that they were there merely to give out information.

“Not everybody was tickled to see them here,” Stayton said. “But I was.”
 
I my not so humble opinion Stayton is a moron and does not want to have to compete with private sellers. What the ATF agent did was in clear violate of Title 18, harassing a citizen "under the color of law". If it was my show, I would have asked the ATF to exit my show ASAP and not return. Stayton would have been warned to watch his mouth and statements to the press while at my show under threat of being asked to leave.
 
ATF has had a table at the entrance to the big annual KCMO collectors show longer then I can remember.

There are almost always agents wandering around at some point at almost all shows, whether you knew it or not.

rc
 
Since you were there, can you tell us exactly what was said?
Regardless of whether I was there or not, just having guns on a table is not grounds for doing what the agent did. The agent had no cause that he could state to stop and question the guy (you every hear of a Terry stop? Which this was.) and that makes his actions illegal and harassing. If you can't see that then you are one of the reasons why our government is out of control.
 
The agent had no cause that he could state to stop and question the guy (you every hear of a Terry stop? Which this was.) and that makes his actions illegal and harassing.
What "stop" are you talking about? Was this guy driving his table around the convention center or something not revealed in the article?

And you know that the agent had no probable cause because...how?
 
I don't see anything alarming here.

BATFE setting up a booth at a gun show is like the Secretary of State or state police setting up a booth at a car show.

We have no idea what the facts were about the "private collector" with 81 guns for sale. Sure, he could be a genuine collector liquidating his collection, but it could also be some guy who is operating as an unlicensed dealer. We don't know. I'd be careful about making assumptions.
 
I was by there Sunday, 3 ladies sitting at the table with some literature, some free cd/dvd disks on firearm laws and information for FFL ..

They didn't talk much, except between themselves. There was probably a roaming agent around the tables, but the ladies didn't leave their table while I was there.
 
You don't need to be driving to be "stopped". A "Terry Stop" means a cop makes contact with you but he can't be doing more than being socialable without having cause to "stop" you.
 
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This was NOT a Terry stop. The guy was sitting behind the table and an ATF agent asked him a question. He could have refused to answer. Sounds like he KNEW what he was doing was illegal, and that's why he chose to book it out of there. I don't want private sellers harassed any more than the next guy, but when a guy takes 81 firearms with him to set up a booth and then says it's his personal collection that he is selling, I have to wonder if he is trying to skirt the law. My guess is that's what the ATF agent thought as well. And, what the seller knew, given his rapid exit.

ETA: For anyone wondering, here is the definition of a Terry Stop:

For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to in short as a "stop and frisk," or simply a "Terry stop". The Terry standard was later extended to temporary detentions of persons in vehicles, known as traffic stops.
 
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guy with 81 guns?
Really doesn't sound like a cllector unless a whole lot were the same type or model.
Why doesn't the ATF just tell him "we'll make you life easier and run all your buyers for free".

AFS
 
You guy ever hear of the term "INTIMIDATION". That's what this was clear, plain and simple. The Texas branch of the ATF has demonstrated several times in recent years that the Constitution and the law does not affect them, they can do whatever they want.

If the cop asks you questions like this one did, it sure the hell was a Terry Stop because it sure as shootin' wasn't social call.
 
According to Hill, one of his merchants was set up with about 81 firearms. When confronted by the ATF about his status as a federal dealer, the merchant responded that the weapons were part of his personal collection, but that he had filed an application to be a federally licensed dealer.

Ok, how many reading disadvantaged people do we have here? The man set up as a "merchant", doing business as defined by the Hosts. Disposing of 81 firearms at a table, where the ATF is present, is going to be asking to be questioned by them. Not only that, but the idea of his being an FFL had to come from him, on his application.

Instead of attempting to make political hay from his poor judgement, ATF gave him a bye. Refreshing.
 
Sounds like he KNEW what he was doing was illegal, and that's why he chose to book it out of there. I don't want private sellers harassed any more than the next guy, but when a guy takes 81 firearms with him to set up a booth and then says it's his personal collection that he is selling, I have to wonder if he is trying to skirt the law. My guess is that's what the ATF agent thought as well. And, what the seller knew, given his rapid exit.

+1. If this was my private collection, and I was lawfully selling it, their is no way I would be talked into leaving, and I do not know many active gun owners that would. We don't know what was said, but clearly the sellers actions suggest something they said convinced him he was better off packing up. Frankly sounds like they gave him a break in allowing him to move on.
 
2 cents from a highroad noob. I live in Floirida now and enjoy my right to own firearms, shoot action 2 gun, trap, and both wife and I have carry permits. I have many new and good friends and find most gun owners good and courteous people. In NJ where I was originally from it was such a hassle with a single 9mm that I never used it. I have zero problem with them questioning people breaking the law. I enjoy my right and priveledge and that seller should be getting the crap - sounds like he was obviously outside the law.

I'd love to convert my AK-47 to fully automatic, but what keeps me from doing it is years in the pen not because I morally or not capable of doing so. There's a good reason automatic weapons have a high bar for ownership. However, I can run down to a local range and rent a class III and blast away. Its a tradeoff.
 
Sounds to me like the ATF was being much more courteous than many of us are use to hearing.

Free cd/dvd full of information on gun laws and how to become an FFL...I would have taken one with thanks!

Letting a "private collector" have a chance to head home and wait for his FFL (why apply for an FFL if you are selling 81 guns at a show as just a collector? sounds like he plans on more than just getting rid of his collection or a couple less interesting pieces) before playing merchant seems extremely generous almost to the point of negligent.
 
"INTIMIDATION". That's what this was clear, plain and simple.
So you were there and you were party to the conversation? Oh wait no. We do not know the full details of what happened. Jumping to conclusions does not do any good. And last I checked the BATFE has every right to ask to see the guys papers. Like it or not it is their ball game and their rules.
 
So you were there and you were party to the conversation? Oh wait no. We do not know the full details of what happened. Jumping to conclusions does not do any good. And last I checked the BATFE has every right to ask to see the guys papers. Like it or not it is their ball game and their rules.
No wonder the government keeps ignoring the Constitution and the law, you guys will give them a pass no matter what they do. You assume they meant well when they have demonstrated again and again they do not. rolleyes.jpg
 
If the guy was questioned simply because he had 81 guns to sell is one thing...but if he was "intimidated" because he had 81 guns to sell is another.

I am not a licensed dealer...and don't want to be. But I have enough guns that if I wanted to sell 81 or more...I could. (luckily...I don't sell many, but I buy all I can afford)

How many sales does it take before a person is REQUIRED BY LAW to be a licensed dealer...how many in what period of time? That is the question.
 
Sounds to me like the ATF was being much more courteous than many of us are use to hearing.
Free cd/dvd full of information on gun laws and how to become an FFL...I would have taken one with thanks!

Agree. And if they did more of this they would probably have a better image. As I said before, I don't see anything alarming in the story.

Letting a "private collector" have a chance to head home and wait for his FFL (why apply for an FFL if you are selling 81 guns at a show as just a collector? sounds like he plans on more than just getting rid of his collection or a couple less interesting pieces) before playing merchant seems extremely generous almost to the point of negligent.

I'm going to disagree on the last bit. It's only in recent years that there has become an assumption by both the public and LE that every unlawful act (including the vast majority that are not violent) requires an arrest and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. I see nothing the least bit wrong with a LEO who sees someone doing something that is or may be illegal, but is not violent, telling them to stop doing it and encouraging them to show that they have or are stopping, rather than arresting them and trying to ruin their life. Again, we don't know the facts, but it's possible that the BATFE agent who chatted with the "collector" deserves praise for a measured response.

For the most part the federal gun laws are regulatory compliance measures. It would be a much happier world for all if they were treated as a compliance tool rather than a "gotcha" method of ruining people's lives.
 
No wonder the government keeps ignoring the Constitution and the law, you guys will give them a pass no matter what they do. You assume they meant well when they have demonstrated again and again they do not
Oh thanks for that laugh... it has been a tough day and I needed that.

All I said is that you, me, and everyone else in this thread was not there and as such do not know exactly what happened. But I guess you can read into that anything you like.
 
How many sales does it take before a person is REQUIRED BY LAW to be a licensed dealer...how many in what period of time? That is the question.

There is no magic number or time period. It all depends on intent. If you regularly buy guns for the purpose of resale at a profit, and do so in a businesslike manner, you are deemed a dealer and need to obtain the applicable FFL (01 in most cases). If you collect guns and sometimes sell off guns because you're bored with them or want the cash for other purposes, including buying other guns that interest you more, you are not a dealer and do not need an FFL. It's OK if you sometimes or even usually make a profit as a collector, and you can use the proceeds for whatever you want, but you can't be buying and reselling, on a regular basis, for the purpose of making a profit.

So, that's about as black and white as mud. I would suggest that if you sell more than a few guns a year, you should examine your real purposes. OTOH if you have a one-time sale of most or all your collection for whatever reason, that should be perfectly legal, as long as it's one-time and not a regular business enterprise.
 
No wonder the government keeps ignoring the Constitution and the law, you guys will give them a pass no matter what they do. You assume they meant well when they have demonstrated again and again they do not.

Yes. Clearly, if we'd only get on the internet and thump our chests on internet forums, liberty and freedom for all would not be in peril. You're a true patriot.
 
I'm going to disagree on the last bit. It's only in recent years that there has become an assumption by both the public and LE that every unlawful act (including the vast majority that are not violent) requires an arrest and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. I see nothing the least bit wrong with a LEO who sees someone doing something that is or may be illegal, but is not violent, telling them to stop doing it and encouraging them to show that they have or are stopping, rather than arresting them and trying to ruin their life. Again, we don't know the facts, but it's possible that the BATFE agent who chatted with the "collector" deserves praise for a measured response.

I completely agree with you on this and did not mean to imply that the potentially "negligent" handling was a bad thing at all. I meant it more as what their supervisors would have thought about it.

For the most part the federal gun laws are regulatory compliance measures. It would be a much happier world for all if they were treated as a compliance tool rather than a "gotcha" method of ruining people's lives.

Agree as well. I can build a house without meeting the building standards code and it could fall and kill people, but I would likely face little more than a fine and losing any license if I was doing it professionally.

But if I happened to sell a gun to someone or even purchase a gun from someone where either the gun or person was questionable, then I could potentially lose my life either to prison or overreacting agents.
 
What I found interesting (troubling?) was that the ATF agent refused to divulge her name....I am not familiar with the ATF (Thankfully), but don't other government agents usually show you an ID? It wasn't as if she was undercover.

Bob
 
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