Who Wants an 8mm Cartridge?

Not me. No matter what happens, in my mind at least- bigger is still better. If a little one expands to xxx with technological advances , when those same advances are applied to a bigger projectile it too will benefit. Never been on board with 9mm over 45 acp and I'm not interested in ever diminishing diameters. Others may disagree and that doesn't bother me at all, just as my opinion shouldn't bother you at all.

golden said:

Past a certain point, an increase in ammo capacity is just that and does not constitute a real advantage. We are up to 9m.m. pistols with 20 round capacity, how much more is needed.

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What about 20 in a compact or 13 in a micro?

WrongHanded said:

far as the cartridge design, what would you like to see in an 8mm cartridge?

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MCB nailed it in the second post a straight or slightly tapered rimless case with an OAL of 1.15-1.2 and a MAP of 38-40K should push a 110-115 gr bullet to 1150-1200 fps.
It's hilarious to see all the 9mm guys use the 40and 45 guys arguments word for word.

Kleanbore said:

Forensic experts say that the 9 is okay, but they haven't told us of any adequate .32 rounds.

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It's literally a stipulation of OP's Hypothetical.
Ammunition manufacturers have the 1.5x expansion down to a science.
Do you honestly believe they can't tell the difference between a .678" projectile and a .532" but could tell .532" from .468"?

Kleanbore said:

Stipulation" of a "hypothetical"?

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OP stated "and still passes the FBI penetration and expansion testing?"

Kleanbore said:

The FBI tests expansion of bullets of service caliber, and to my knowledge, has not approved anything smaller. I do not see the .327 Magnum on any lists of approved cartridges.

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Is that because it does not pass or was not tested?

Kleanbore said:

The FBI tests expansion of bullets of service caliber, and to my knowledge, has not approved anything smaller. I do not see the .327 Magnum on any lists of approved cartridges.

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The FBI test protocols aren't exactly top secret. There's plenty of gel tests out there for about any caliber. Now for the forensic end.
Do you honestly believe they can't tell the difference between a .678" projectile and a .532" but could tell .532" from .468"?

golden said:

Mauser, [...]

If you just want more rounds, then why not use a shortened .30 Carbine round. This case is already set up for higher than standard pistol round pressure. Again, how much performance gain, if any would you get?
Plus, magazine capacity would be EVEN LARGER than with an 8m.m. cartridge.

Jim

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Right. This is exactly what I'm talking about. 8mm Steyer is .321 diameter projectile, .32 ACP is .312 , .30 carbine is .308. .013 inch is not enough for me to worry about. Just shorten it down to an overall length of 1.17 inch or so (same as 9x19) and you and I are talking about the same (undeveloped) cartridge. A shortened .30 carbine checks all the boxes for me. Short enough to fit in a normal pistol, slightly tapered case, and the .308 bullet diameter might actually help us find better sectional density bullets.

The appeal to me is having a narrower double stack magazine, giving the capability for a narrower double stack grip. I like narrow grips, and it irks me that my Tanfoglio competition pistol has a magwell big enough for a double stack .45, but it's only a 9mm. All they do to fill that space is stamp ribs into the magazine to take up that space. In addition to being more comfy, narrower grips also conceal better. The only ballistic performance gain I want is for it to be a more serious smallbore handgun cartridge than .32 ACP. I want it to feed more reliably than .32 ACP by getting rid of the rim. I want it to feed more reliably than a real .30 carbine handgun by keeping the overall length shorter.

Also, self-defense is not the only use for a handgun. I shoot with earplugs most of the time; but my nightstand gun and the gun on me now is .45 because I expect not to have ear protection if something bad happens. I do carry a 9mm CZ75 compact on occasion, usually when working outside.

Variety is the spice of life, and while an 8mm (or thereabouts) handgun will not fill all the roles of a .45 or 9mm, I think there is room in the market for it.

Pragmatically, we have spent the last few weeks/months/year trying to find the ammo or materials to load/fire/support what we have. All well older than I am... or we are... in simple machines that work . Any cartridge is a solution to a like-minded platform that effectively sends the cartridge's payload or projectile to a means. Functionally with established trust. Small arms are the slowest moving tech on the planet.
Unless this new 8mm solution is caseless, I don't care. I'm not saying that time has not produced some advances. I get that that I am dodging the whole 32cal debate. No thanks! It's not changing anything or a game changer; just as the thread migrated to platform and not projectile tech. Projectile tech which is the same scaled to bore to date.

Kleanbore said:

One more time, why would it matter?

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Because it should matter. if they are telling you this is the reason there's no difference in performance between 9mm 40 and 45 and you believe this to be true how could you possibly believe they could tell the difference between a 9mm and this hypothetical 32?

WrongHanded said:

When you carry an 8+1 would would prefer to carry a 10+1 in the same sized gun, it makes a difference.

As far as the cartridge design, what would you like to see in an 8mm cartridge?

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I had a whole long goofy thing typed out but I deleted it.

Plain and simple, I prefer larger diameter. If given a choice , I'll always sacrifice capacity for a projectile that guarantees larger leaking holes. Only way to get the biggest hole possible is to start with the biggest projectile that's reasonable for a concealable firearm. Others can disagree but it's just the best for me


If I was to design an 8mm cartridge it would end up looking like a rifle round and be in excess of 200 grains and going more than 2500 fps- that's effective.

I just don't have any interest in the small bore slow stuff.

Kleanbore said:

One more time: I have no basis for believing what they can or cannot discern such a difference. It is not within my experience base. Issues relative to contrasting the effects of a 9mm, .40, and ,45 must be left to forensic experts tho work in the field. I cannot explain them.

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So you're back to appeal to authority and really have no input.

It doesn't take an MD to open a anatomy book or to understand that on only are the heart and lungs elastic that they are constantly expanding and contracting. A rudimentary understanding of physics and pressure will tell you that the damage to the heart will be greater when it's contracting than relaxed.
Now don't try to construe this that I want to some how time your shot, it's to say one more time it's not that they can't tell because there's no difference it's that they can't tell because there are too many other variables some that can have much greater effects on outcome.
Now to continue and appeal to authority that the inability to discern relatively small differences in diameter is limited to service calibers and make an ad hominem attack as to my ignorance is well
argumentative, ignorant, and rude.

I shoot quite a bit in the way of 32s. Most have been fired from my SP-101 327, but I also made up a "fun gun" in the Contender platform with a 7.4" stub tube chambered in 32 ACP rimmed. Given the barrel length and the fact that I can run any pressure I want, I can get some impressive performance from a 32 ACP sized case.

For this proposal, adding say 0.1" to the 32 ACP case and allowing 327 pressures would certainly get better than 32 NAA performance with a straight wall round. Lets stick with 0.312" bullets for now due to the availability of 32 H&R bullets and to allow use of 32 ACP loading dies. Test brass could be made by converting 32 longs to rimless and trimming to length. Going with a real 8mm (0.323") would not change much for performance.

In a LCP sized gun, Quickload says a 98 gr bullet could be pushed to 1240 fps (3.1" barrel, 45000 psi, 1.1" OAL). I would think an 85 gr bullet would be less painful to shoot and it could be pushed to 1350 fps using the same parameters.

Running higher pressures does give a boost in performance but at the cost of more muzzle blast. Most folk do not like shooting full power 327s from shorter guns due to the blast. However, the 35000 psi of the 9mm seems to be tolerated much better.

If we consider 35000 psi, the 85 gr velocity drops to around 1250 fps and the 98 gr drops to around 1140 fps. These velocities would certainly allow for good expansion and bullets are long enough so that retaining good penetration should not be a problem.

With the right bullet, the 35000 psi version effectiveness would probably be just less than the 9mm, but well more than either the 32 ACP or the 380. You could have a subcompact gun with the dimensions of a single stack 9mm and have more capacity. Recoil should be less than a 9mm in the same gun and blast should be about the same. The round would probably be an improvement to the 9mm in a LCP sized gun as far as the overall functional performance.

P FLADOS,

I would suggest you build one and try it out before you announce that it is the solution.

Mavracer,

Show me one before you proclaim it is the solution. I am more than fine with a 13 round magazine full of ammo that I know will do the job. I frequently carry a 13 round magazine capacity mid size 9m.m. when I am off duty and see no problem. If the 8m.m. is almost as effective, again why bother?

Jim

golden said:

Show me one before you proclaim it is the solution. I am more than fine with a 13 round magazine full of ammo that I know will do the job. I frequently carry a 13 round magazine capacity mid size 9m.m. when I am off duty and see no problem. If the 8m.m. is

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I don't believe "the solution" exists they're all compromises. It would have all the advantages over your 9mm that you perceive the your 9mm has over a 40.
I got my 90+ YO father some 115gr critical defense because my 124+p and 147s were just a bit much to me this hypothetical round would make good sense in a Hellcat p365 size gun for someone who was bothered by the recoil of the hotter 9mm ammo in these little monsters

MAVRACER,

I would have to see that for myself.
I remember the .327 magnum touted as 85 percent of the .357 in a smaller gun. So what?

Again, you assume something with my preference for the 9m.m. over the .40 S&W. Both are effective using the right ammo. Using the wrong ammo, like the older simple jacketed hollowpoints, both are less effective then unless you up the noise, flash and recoil. I have been through that with +P and +P+ in the 9m.m. and the high velocity rounds in the .40 S&W.
I can get the performance that I want with FEDERAL HST ammo (or something similar) in either caliber, but the .40 will offer a small performance advantage and fewer rounds with more recoil.

I do not see an 8m.m. reaching the performance level that I want. Sure, you can +P or +P+ the pressure, then you have a LOUDER round with a BRIGHTER FLASH.
Also, YOU CANNOT REACH A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE WITHOUT A SIMILAR LEVEL OF RECOIL. A thinner grip means less grip area and you have an apparently harder kicking gun than a wider grip 9m.m. I have discovered this for myself when I tried shooting the micro 9m.m. pistols. The smaller the grips made these guns uncomfortable for me to shoot over extended shooting sessions. I could easily get through 50 round, but that was it for me.
Since everyone has a different tolerance for recoil, it may not matter to some, but will not change.


I have been shooting long enough, that I will wait till I can shoot it to believe it.

Jim