SigSauers, the P220 at least Has the following advantages over a Glock of comparable size:
Narrower grip, fits more people.
Circular springs vs flat springs
FAR more accurate
FAR better trigger
FAR better safety system
Better feeding system, with tighter chambers, and better cartridge support.
and, far better support, in our area, from the dealers.
Those are his opinions, and he is considered an expert in firearms, by the court system. So in this case a 'simple opinion' is worth considerably more then your keyboard commando.
.357Sig it's really amazing that you can pass off the observations and actions of the U.S. Military, and their experience over the last 150 years.
Yes, this person is an avid history nut, and, since he has access to information and observations that most civilians don't, he doesn't fall into the same trap of ignoring the experiences and observations in actual combat of how firearms have worked.
I will say once again: this is an EXPERT's opinion in the field, not yours, not mine. There is a reason he was selected to pick the firearms for our LEO department. Experience and expertise.
Using the sigs, our department has been successful in placing shots properly, and quickly stopping actions. Seems that guys 'opinion' have worked well.
As for the discussion of the LAPD, you totally miss the point. A 155 grain LFN, LEAD FLAT NOSE, has no petals. It penetrates straight, much straighter then any hollowpoint. Wound channel is created by velocity and bullet diameter, not expansion. Penetration is limited by bullet weight.
Where have you seen .45's deflect in peoples bodys? What bullet weight, what velocity, and what bullet design?
The point is you match the penetration of the round to the target you are most likely to encounter.
"ottom line...you are using the same inaccurate, unproven theories most people resort to in these debates. Anecdotal information, unverified second and third-hand stories, physical theories that work what tested in a controlled experiment against a predictable medium..."
A no. I'm relying on information provided by a firearms expert with over 40 years of actual experience, in many capacities, LEO, SWAT, and military.
Not to mention my own experience, and research.
Also, the information you mention is our most reliable source of accurate
results.
Medical evidence?
How many gunshot wounds in the last 200 years of war?
ER sampling is too small to be of any statistical validity.
Wapato:
Remember you have to look at the different loads used, not the caliber.
A light for caliber, high velocity expanding bullet is more likely to stop short or turn then a heavy for caliber, LFN, non-expanding bullet.
Ball ammo DOES deflect, and even turn and tumble. Why? It's designed to do that, to cause maximum damage, during war, without violating the
Hague convention. The goal of military rounds is to do as much damage as possible, WITHOUT KILLING. Why? a wounded soldier is a pain, and requires resources and manpower
to take care of, resources that would otherwise be used to attack the enemy.
A .223 bullet that tumbles is much more effective at transfering and damaging then a .22 that penetrates straight. Don't think anyone is going to argue the .223 is not WAY more effective then a .22lr.
Fatelvis:
I think once you start going light and expanding bullets in .45 ACP you start getting into possible deflection as well.
I hope, since I use 147 grain Truncated cone and HST in 9mm, that those bullet weights are less likely to deflect. They gain Sectional Density, but,
they are STILL lighter then the absolute lightest round consistently used in .45 ACP.
Now we can start getting into the REAL caliber discussions. 9MM, with it's heaviest bullets, IS more likely to deflect off bone, or intervening objects then similar design, heavy for caliber bullets in .40 and .45.
This is why I like .45. the Heaviest bullet loaded for the .40 is a 200 grain bullet, at a maximum of 910 fps. That bullet weight is likely to penetrate fairly well, but maybe not THAT well. Still, I like the extra 53 grains over the 9MM's heaviest bullet.
That said, I'd much rather go with a 255 grain, Hard Cast Flat nose, in
.45 at around 950 fps, or, a 230 grain Flat nose FMJ at nearly 1000 fps.
If penetration is an issue, the .45's are in a different category penetration wise due to their ability to at the extreme end, have MUCH heavier bullets then either .40 or 9MM, at similar velocities.
Finally, if I'm going to use a Hollow point, I want it to be a heavy one, to
penetrate well, and maintain more speed into the target.
Buffalobore has done an excellent job or researching this idea, and has developed a deer grenade .44 magnum. It uses a soft, gas checked, 240 grain HP.
Similar concept might be accomplished in .45 Super. OH, that's what I have in my guns...
Narrower grip, fits more people.
Circular springs vs flat springs
FAR more accurate
FAR better trigger
FAR better safety system
Better feeding system, with tighter chambers, and better cartridge support.
and, far better support, in our area, from the dealers.
Those are his opinions, and he is considered an expert in firearms, by the court system. So in this case a 'simple opinion' is worth considerably more then your keyboard commando.
.357Sig it's really amazing that you can pass off the observations and actions of the U.S. Military, and their experience over the last 150 years.
Yes, this person is an avid history nut, and, since he has access to information and observations that most civilians don't, he doesn't fall into the same trap of ignoring the experiences and observations in actual combat of how firearms have worked.
I will say once again: this is an EXPERT's opinion in the field, not yours, not mine. There is a reason he was selected to pick the firearms for our LEO department. Experience and expertise.
Using the sigs, our department has been successful in placing shots properly, and quickly stopping actions. Seems that guys 'opinion' have worked well.
As for the discussion of the LAPD, you totally miss the point. A 155 grain LFN, LEAD FLAT NOSE, has no petals. It penetrates straight, much straighter then any hollowpoint. Wound channel is created by velocity and bullet diameter, not expansion. Penetration is limited by bullet weight.
Where have you seen .45's deflect in peoples bodys? What bullet weight, what velocity, and what bullet design?
The point is you match the penetration of the round to the target you are most likely to encounter.
"ottom line...you are using the same inaccurate, unproven theories most people resort to in these debates. Anecdotal information, unverified second and third-hand stories, physical theories that work what tested in a controlled experiment against a predictable medium..."
A no. I'm relying on information provided by a firearms expert with over 40 years of actual experience, in many capacities, LEO, SWAT, and military.
Not to mention my own experience, and research.
Also, the information you mention is our most reliable source of accurate
results.
Medical evidence?
How many gunshot wounds in the last 200 years of war?
ER sampling is too small to be of any statistical validity.
Wapato:
Remember you have to look at the different loads used, not the caliber.
A light for caliber, high velocity expanding bullet is more likely to stop short or turn then a heavy for caliber, LFN, non-expanding bullet.
Ball ammo DOES deflect, and even turn and tumble. Why? It's designed to do that, to cause maximum damage, during war, without violating the
Hague convention. The goal of military rounds is to do as much damage as possible, WITHOUT KILLING. Why? a wounded soldier is a pain, and requires resources and manpower
to take care of, resources that would otherwise be used to attack the enemy.
A .223 bullet that tumbles is much more effective at transfering and damaging then a .22 that penetrates straight. Don't think anyone is going to argue the .223 is not WAY more effective then a .22lr.
Fatelvis:
I think once you start going light and expanding bullets in .45 ACP you start getting into possible deflection as well.
I hope, since I use 147 grain Truncated cone and HST in 9mm, that those bullet weights are less likely to deflect. They gain Sectional Density, but,
they are STILL lighter then the absolute lightest round consistently used in .45 ACP.
Now we can start getting into the REAL caliber discussions. 9MM, with it's heaviest bullets, IS more likely to deflect off bone, or intervening objects then similar design, heavy for caliber bullets in .40 and .45.
This is why I like .45. the Heaviest bullet loaded for the .40 is a 200 grain bullet, at a maximum of 910 fps. That bullet weight is likely to penetrate fairly well, but maybe not THAT well. Still, I like the extra 53 grains over the 9MM's heaviest bullet.
That said, I'd much rather go with a 255 grain, Hard Cast Flat nose, in
.45 at around 950 fps, or, a 230 grain Flat nose FMJ at nearly 1000 fps.
If penetration is an issue, the .45's are in a different category penetration wise due to their ability to at the extreme end, have MUCH heavier bullets then either .40 or 9MM, at similar velocities.
Finally, if I'm going to use a Hollow point, I want it to be a heavy one, to
penetrate well, and maintain more speed into the target.
Buffalobore has done an excellent job or researching this idea, and has developed a deer grenade .44 magnum. It uses a soft, gas checked, 240 grain HP.
Similar concept might be accomplished in .45 Super. OH, that's what I have in my guns...
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:banghead: 
