.38 Special
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The idea is the soft material picks up grit and then acts as an abrasive lap.
"You never clean a .22 rifle"
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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The idea is the soft material picks up grit and then acts as an abrasive lap.
lysanderxiii
Member
"Research Test of the Effect on Accuracy of Cleaning the Bore of the Caliber .22 Rimfire Rifle," L. Moore, Infantry and Aircraft Weapons Division, Aberdeen Proving Grounds, February 1964.
ABSTRACT
The bore of a small-bore training or match rifle may be worn or damaged because of excessive or improper cleaning. This test was conducted to investigate the effect on accuracy of cleaning the bore of the caliber .22 rimfire rifle. A total of 3800 rounds was fired in four match rifles at a range of 100 yards on an indoor range using a machine rest. Conditions were kept as nearly constant as possible, except for barrel temperature and bore surface condition. It was found that the first shot fired from a rifle which was not fired for some time, and infrequently the second shot, was out of the normal group, and that, excluding the first group, the difference in group size before and after cleaning was not significant. It is concluded that cleaning the bore of the caliber .22 rimfire rifle does not improve its accuracy under normal conditions. It is recommended that unless the caliber .22 rimfire rifle has been exposed to adverse weather conditions, the bore be cleaned infrequently, and that the cause of the first shot impacting out of the normal group be investigated further. (my emphasis)
That said, a clean weapon is always more reliable than a dirty weapon, so I would not recommend never cleaning them.
EDIT: I should note that after cleaning the first group, and first group only, where not significantly larger than subsequent groups, but did average larger. This indicates fouling has some impact on accuracy.
ABSTRACT
The bore of a small-bore training or match rifle may be worn or damaged because of excessive or improper cleaning. This test was conducted to investigate the effect on accuracy of cleaning the bore of the caliber .22 rimfire rifle. A total of 3800 rounds was fired in four match rifles at a range of 100 yards on an indoor range using a machine rest. Conditions were kept as nearly constant as possible, except for barrel temperature and bore surface condition. It was found that the first shot fired from a rifle which was not fired for some time, and infrequently the second shot, was out of the normal group, and that, excluding the first group, the difference in group size before and after cleaning was not significant. It is concluded that cleaning the bore of the caliber .22 rimfire rifle does not improve its accuracy under normal conditions. It is recommended that unless the caliber .22 rimfire rifle has been exposed to adverse weather conditions, the bore be cleaned infrequently, and that the cause of the first shot impacting out of the normal group be investigated further. (my emphasis)
That said, a clean weapon is always more reliable than a dirty weapon, so I would not recommend never cleaning them.
EDIT: I should note that after cleaning the first group, and first group only, where not significantly larger than subsequent groups, but did average larger. This indicates fouling has some impact on accuracy.
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R.W.Dale
Member
I shoot benchrest casually. If I get a rifle that’s new to me and the bore is in an unknown state I will carefully clean it with a couple of brush passes, some sweets 7.62 and various other solvents.
that IMO resets the bore. Then I shoot only lead lubed bullets general pretty high end stuff. After a match or shooting session I pull ONE oiled patch through the bore on a piece of weed eater twine once and that’s it. this sweeps out any unburned power residue and protects the bore from the high humidity where I live. I have rifles several bricks in where if I can pull my stuff together have no problem printing the same groups it always did.
a couple of fouling shots are absolutely needed afterwards but that’s about it.
now these are very accurate rifles where you can actually tell such things on a target. If this was some sporter rifle getting that ziplock bag of loose misc 22 ammunition shot through it or worse yet copper washed 22 ammunition I would absolutely clean and even scrub the bore periodically. Certainly before the gun went into any long term storage
that IMO resets the bore. Then I shoot only lead lubed bullets general pretty high end stuff. After a match or shooting session I pull ONE oiled patch through the bore on a piece of weed eater twine once and that’s it. this sweeps out any unburned power residue and protects the bore from the high humidity where I live. I have rifles several bricks in where if I can pull my stuff together have no problem printing the same groups it always did.
a couple of fouling shots are absolutely needed afterwards but that’s about it.
now these are very accurate rifles where you can actually tell such things on a target. If this was some sporter rifle getting that ziplock bag of loose misc 22 ammunition shot through it or worse yet copper washed 22 ammunition I would absolutely clean and even scrub the bore periodically. Certainly before the gun went into any long term storage
LiveLife
Member
Interesting.
Thanks for posting this and will keep in mind as I conduct my myth busting thread.
LiveLife
Member
Ah, very good point.
So proper "cleaning" essentially establishes "bare metal" reset of the barrel to include removal of leading/copper fouling. Me mopping the bore with Hoppes #9 and patching til clean IS NOT TRUE "CLEANING".
Good points.
I will factor them perhaps with the KSA bull barrel I got for the T/CR22. I may do what you outlined in the post and conduct a separate "base line" testing with lubed lead match ammo and reference those groups with subsequent "dirty" and "cleaned" barrel groups.
R.W.Dale
Member
Ah, very good point.
So "cleaning" essentially establishes "bare metal" reset of the barrel. Me mopping the bore with Hoppes #9 and patching til clean IS NOT TRUE "CLEANING".
s.
not sure If I’m responding to snark or not.
When I get a rifle and I don’t know how it was treated, what was shot in it or how potentially fouled it is I’m not going to waste $10 a box ammunition sorting this out on target. I’m going to clean to bare metal as best I can so if I have an accuracy issue I already know it’s not the state of cleanliness.
IMO all of this is not something a sporter rifle shooting bulk packaged ammunition is going to be able to see in the general noise of rifle accuracy and ammunition inconsistencies.
IMO you’ll have to start with some pretty accurate rifles and some pretty good ammunition to see the phenomenon this thread is based on. Someone shooting thunderbolts from a marlin 60 need not concern themselves
HOWARD J
Member
Everytime I shoot a 22 I run Hoppies on a patch down the barrel--i clean the action of the rifle with Barricade rest prevent incl. the barrel as the rifle may sit in the safe for a couple of years--I never use a brush on the barrel
I am more or less agnostic about the affects on accuracy of a cleaned or not cleaned barrel. A barrel that fouls, has lead lumps, I am sure would not be accurate, and for rimfires, the lube on the bullet, and case are critical. Incidentally, the 22lr is a very old round, and on match ammunition, very greasy from bullet tip to rim.
This is not an accident, these cases were externally lubricated all the way back, and the grease coating is critical for accuracy, and for function of semi automatic rifles and pistols. Rimfire semi automatic mechanisms are blow backs and the case must not adhere to the chamber. Based on discussions I had at this year's National Matches, rifle ammunition has a thicker, beeswax based lube, whereas the pistol match is covered with a thinner "vegetable" based lube. The reason, I was told, was the thicker lube increases cambering friction, and thus, causes misfires if the bolt is not fully closed. You can read in the brochures of match ammunition makers, about the "special lubes" they use for semi automatics. I have recommended oiling pistol rounds in cold weather, and this is a practice that Clark Guns recommends
However, testing the affect on accuracy of a cleaned barrel versus fouled barrel, if there is a difference, it might be less than the variability of the test ammunition. In which case, the test proves nothing. Commercial ammunition varies a lot more than match ammunition. Match shooters can send their rifles off to Eley or Lapua and have them lot tested in tunnels. I have done this at Lapua in Mesa AZ. Match shooters are consistently testing ammunition. A team shooter, who placed third that year, he said he had his rifle lot tested 60 or 90 times, might have been the 90 times. Ammunition accuracy varies by rifle, by lot, by brand. And if you find a particularly good lot, you buy all you can, and hoard the best for the big matches. I asked the third place shooter how many rounds it takes him to have confidence in his ammunition, and he said "a brick". And that is pretty close what it has take me to trust, or come to an opinion on a lot, about 500 rounds in competition. When I use my best lot selected ammunition my X count is always higher.
There is no wind in the test tunnels because 22 lr ammunition is extremely wind sensitive. Until you shoot rimfire accuracy sports, such as 22lr F Class, or Smallbore prone, you probably dismiss wind, because your centerfire rounds are much more insensitive to wind. But, wind is out there, even if you can't see it. Wind is not regular, it is not linear, there are pockets and bubbles, and swirls, and wind devils, even in what appears at first, flat calms. Many a time I have broken the shot, in what was a calm, only to see a flag flick, and that was enough to knock the bullet out of the ten ring. One little flick, no idea where those came from.
One of the worst are whirlwinds, they are little tornadoes. They are visible at Ben Avery, due to all the dust, and are locally called dust devils. But at an eastern range, not visible. Unless you look at the grass, and see moving circles! A whirlwind is a train wreck coming down the tracks. If you don't see it, lets say it blows your bullet out to the right, and then you make full left windage to correct, and then the other side hits your target, and blows the bullet out an equal amount left, plus the left windage you put on!
Cleaning rods also have square edges at the front, and I believe those can gouge. Barrels are made out of very soft, but ductile, materials, or they would be next to impossible to drill and rifle. I am sure there are folks here who have seen water wear a groove in metals, like a valve, and water is pretty soft.
ColtPythonElite
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Cleaning rod material is also a heavily debated topic with benchrest shooters....I use a brass one piece rod. Every so often, I use metal polish to clean it and remove anything that allegedly can become embedded in the brass.
R.W.Dale
Member
One anecdote I deal with is airerator motors from sewage treatment settling ponds. These motors have a long shaft that has a prop on the end and goes through a curved deflector plate on floats so they lift water and fling it aside. Near the prop they have what is called a marine bearing that’s just a fancy plastic bushing. When these motors come into the shop for repair they always have a groove in the stainless steel shaft where the marine bearings are.
this example takes thousands of hours of run time. But it’s also a line contact. A cleaning rod especially entering a crown is going to be much more concentrated point contact on the most accuracy sensitive part of the entire shooting system
do I think it’s an automatic detriment to clean a rimfire NO you can use techniques and equipment to clean one properly and safety.
it’s a helluva lot easier, safer on the bbl and burns less ammunition to not do it.
this example takes thousands of hours of run time. But it’s also a line contact. A cleaning rod especially entering a crown is going to be much more concentrated point contact on the most accuracy sensitive part of the entire shooting system
do I think it’s an automatic detriment to clean a rimfire NO you can use techniques and equipment to clean one properly and safety.
it’s a helluva lot easier, safer on the bbl and burns less ammunition to not do it.
Back in my college days, (USAFA Rifle Team '64-'68) I shot small bore 3-position indoor and outdoor .22 LR matches. We used Remington 37's and Winchester 52's initially till the government bought us Anschutz thumb hole stocked beauties that put the previous issues to shame. BTW, the 10 ring on an ISU 50' target for all positions is the size of the period at the end of this sentence & the 8 ring was roughly the same size as a .22 LR bullet dia. To be nationally competitive back then you needed to clean prone, and kneeling and score above 92 offhand. This was done with receiver peep sights and a peep front. Real precision indoor, and the ability to 'read' the wind outdoor taught us the importance of the fundamentals....
As to cleaning these find rifles, we brushed out the actions and loading trays, wiped off the bolt face and under the extractor hook but did not touch the bore whatsoever. No cleaning was necessary and we never NEVER, had a gun lose zero nor foul. You pays your money and you takes your choice but cleaning the bore has never been necessary for any .22 I've owned. I wipe them down, for sure, but the bores are untouched.
Read Ed Harris' interesting comments on .22 LR accuracy in his eminently readable "Back Creek Diaries" for further thoughts...particularly on High Velocity vs. Standard Velocity rounds for accuracy through .22 caliber hand guns...it's well worth reading. Ed was a Ruger engineer, ballistician and member of the American Technical Staff for years. You'll find his comments on several forums as Outpost 75.
Clean the bore if you want, but you're wasting your time and will have to re-season the bore with a dozen or more rounds if you expect to return to your previous zero.
Best Regards, Rod
As to cleaning these find rifles, we brushed out the actions and loading trays, wiped off the bolt face and under the extractor hook but did not touch the bore whatsoever. No cleaning was necessary and we never NEVER, had a gun lose zero nor foul. You pays your money and you takes your choice but cleaning the bore has never been necessary for any .22 I've owned. I wipe them down, for sure, but the bores are untouched.
Read Ed Harris' interesting comments on .22 LR accuracy in his eminently readable "Back Creek Diaries" for further thoughts...particularly on High Velocity vs. Standard Velocity rounds for accuracy through .22 caliber hand guns...it's well worth reading. Ed was a Ruger engineer, ballistician and member of the American Technical Staff for years. You'll find his comments on several forums as Outpost 75.
Clean the bore if you want, but you're wasting your time and will have to re-season the bore with a dozen or more rounds if you expect to return to your previous zero.
Best Regards, Rod
OP
OP
Trey Veston
Member
Ironic that when I shoot in BPCR matches, I run a patch soaked in a secret sauce concoction between every few shots to maintain accuracy. My cleaning rod for that rifle is a softer plastic fat rod with a brass tip.
Some competitors will only use a blow tube to keep the fouling in the bore soft between every shot. I do the blow tube for a couple of shots, then run a patch. Works for me.
Completely different materials and components, obviously, but it's interesting that some folks apply practices for their high-powered rifles to the .22 rifle, which has different materials and physics involved.
Some competitors will only use a blow tube to keep the fouling in the bore soft between every shot. I do the blow tube for a couple of shots, then run a patch. Works for me.
Completely different materials and components, obviously, but it's interesting that some folks apply practices for their high-powered rifles to the .22 rifle, which has different materials and physics involved.
LiveLife
Member
Thank you Rod for the confirmation.
Ignition Override
Member
An aluminum or brass cleaning rod can damage the Steel bore in a rifle, when slowly pushing a tiny patch?
I didn't think that people outside of combat zones used Steel cleaning rods.
I didn't think that people outside of combat zones used Steel cleaning rods.
MacAR
Member
I'd like to add a couple things:
1. I shoot a lot of 22 rf; like, a lot. I'm not a competition shooter, and have no match grade rifles, I just like shooting rimfires. My rule of thumb on cleaning is this: when the gun jams, clean it! Most of my 22's get cleaned once a year; some every other year. As long as they function properly I leave them alone. When I clean any rifle, regardless of caliber, it gets the full treatment: bronze brush, Hoppes #9, dry patches, and then an oiled patch to keep the rust out until it's fired again. The actions also get scrubbed out and oiled. I have a theory, that when I need a rifle, I need it to work. The last thing I want to be doing is digging cartridges out of a jammed 22 while the varmint in my garden/orchard/chicken yard is running away!
2. Anyone who thinks that cleaning cast iron with soap is acceptable, needs to re-examine their thinking. I used my CI last night cooking supper; a simple wipe-out and re-oil with lard was all I did. They will out-last me if properly taken care of. Soap is a good way to loose all those years of seasoning in five minutes or less.
Mac
1. I shoot a lot of 22 rf; like, a lot. I'm not a competition shooter, and have no match grade rifles, I just like shooting rimfires. My rule of thumb on cleaning is this: when the gun jams, clean it! Most of my 22's get cleaned once a year; some every other year. As long as they function properly I leave them alone. When I clean any rifle, regardless of caliber, it gets the full treatment: bronze brush, Hoppes #9, dry patches, and then an oiled patch to keep the rust out until it's fired again. The actions also get scrubbed out and oiled. I have a theory, that when I need a rifle, I need it to work. The last thing I want to be doing is digging cartridges out of a jammed 22 while the varmint in my garden/orchard/chicken yard is running away!
2. Anyone who thinks that cleaning cast iron with soap is acceptable, needs to re-examine their thinking. I used my CI last night cooking supper; a simple wipe-out and re-oil with lard was all I did. They will out-last me if properly taken care of. Soap is a good way to loose all those years of seasoning in five minutes or less.
Mac
someguy2800
Member
I won't say never as I have had a couple 22's that have leaded which of course needs to be removed, but otherwise I do not clean 22 barrels. I also only clean centerfire barrels on an as needed basis. I've found that anything I am shooting lubed cast bullets in to need regular cleaning to remove the lube buildup, but barrels shooting jacketed bullets can in some cases go several hundred rounds without any degradation in accuracy. In other cases cleaning to remove copper or carbon fouling is needed frequently. let the barrel tell you what it wants.
RainDodger
Member
First off, I do clean my rifles regularly.... but I don't clean a .22RF bore unless the accuracy takes a nosedive. I used to clean them, then I heard from two impeccably reliable rimfire gunsmiths regarding the cleaning of them. They both said the same thing - don't clean the bore unless the accuracy goes away. One expert was a 35-year retired gunsmith from Browning, and the other is a current gunsmith specializing in rimfire accuracy work. I had him accurize my Savage 93R, .17HMR a number of years ago. The bore has not been cleaned it at least 6 years. My CZ 457 has yet to have the bore cleaned. I bought it just a few months ago and it has precisely 522 (I log my round counts) rounds down the barrel with zero bore cleanings. It shoots very, very well. I got the same advice regarding a Browning Buckmark. When I mentioned I had cleaned it, the gunsmith said, "What for? No need to clean it unless it stops working."
So what do .22 shooters clean with?
Amen brother. I love the folks who tell me the wind makes no difference at close yardages……
One piece cleaning rods and I see brass bore brushes and patches. I used a slotted tip, but I see a number of guys using a Dewey Parker jag
https://deweyrods.com/product/22-caliber-brass-parker-hale-style-jag-female-threaded/
and everyone is using a bore guide
https://www.sinclairintl.com/gun-cl...l=y&avs|Action+Fit_1=Anschutz+Model+54+(22LR)
mcb
Member
It doesn't but "close range" for 22 LR is like 15 yardsAmen brother. I love the folks who tell me the wind makes no difference at close yardages……
Ditto on all that, what solvent?
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