Bullet weight, velocity, and vertical POI

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I've noticed, as most probably have, that different bullet weights and/or velocity will have sometimes radical effects on vertical POI, especially in handguns.

My current project is a TC contender 10" barrel .357 to be used for field pistol silhouette to 100 yards. My useful velocity range in this cartridge could be anywhere from 500 to 1500 fps, which as one would expect could result in some radically different vertical POIs.

In doing some load work yesterday with a mild load in 158 cast .38, my 25 yard POI was significantly high, and even to 100 yards was perhaps a little high with the rear sight bottomed out. I believe a higher velocity or lighter bullet will bring this down a bit.

How have other folks dealt with this issue?
 
If you like the load you have now, you could consider a taller front sight to bring poi down. Higher velocity or lighter bullet will still have the same poi impact. I believe the trajectory will cause the bullet to impact higher at faster speeds if your poa remains the same.
 
I believe a higher velocity or lighter bullet will bring this down a bit.

How have other folks dealt with this issue?
Oh yeah, many times. In my experience with handguns, a lighter, faster bullet will impact the target lower at 25 yards. A faster bullet of the same weight might impact the target a little lower at 25 yards - you'll have to try it out for yourself to find out.
In either case, at 25 yards or less, how high or low a bullet from a handgun impacts the target is affected by the "dwell time" of the bullet in the handgun's barrel - that's how long the bullet spends in the handguns barrel, which starts up in its recoil arc the instant the cartridge fires.
At longer ranges, things are different. Gravity makes heavier, slower handgun bullets impact the target "lower" at longer ranges unless you raise your rear sight - or lower your front sight.:thumbup:
 
How have other folks dealt with this issue?

A standard S&W M25 in 45 Colt doesn’t have a rear sight that will go low enough for 335 grain lead. So I replaced the rear sight with a dot and removed the front sight. The other option was a taller front sight. I really like the dot!

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Your hypothesis is correct. The effect is a combination of velocity, barrel time and recoil! In affect the heavier bullet is slower (less time in barrel) as the barrel angles upward due to recoil the POI will be higher than the POA.

A lighter bullet/higher velocity the POI will be lower than the POA of the slower/heavier bullet.

Smiles,
 
I'll have to see where things land at mid-range. The short range zero was workable as my aimpoint was almost perfectly on the foot of the chicken and pig at 25 and 50 to get a good center mass hit. Didn't play much with the 158s at 100 as it was cold out and so was I. 75 was not doable due to a deep snow drift.

The rules for field pistol do not allow for any non-standard sights, so I'll be stuck with a combination of velocity and bullet weight to bring things into a useful range. My load leaves plenty of room to go up, but at the expense of unwanted recoil. If nothing else, I know the 125 TC at full .38spl loading will fall into a useful adjustment range. Based on holds on the pig and ram, I'm probably pretty near zero at 75 with that load...and almost out of HP-38:fire:. Building up the front sight -may-be allowed. I might have to ask an official at IHMSA to get a concrete answer.
 
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My experience has been that for the same bullet weight, higher velocity means lower vertical impact. I have assumed this is because the bullet spends less time in the barrel, so the barrel has less time to rise from recoil.

I have also noticed that for the same velocity, a heavier bullet will impact higher on the target. I have assumed this is because although both spend about the same time in the barrel, the heavier bullet creates more recoil and therefore more muzzle rise in the same time.

So I would agree with you, that a lighter and/or faster bullet will bring your POI down.
 
I’ve seen the same phenomena with heavier bullets striking higher on targets.

I’ve always wondered if this would or would not be exaggerated with a 6” or 8 3/8” barrel compared to a 2” one. I can see the longer barrel time giving the gun more time to rise with the bullet in the barrel, but I can also see an 8 3/8” barrel rising less than a shorter barreled gun when recoiling because of its greater weight way out front.

Has anyone ever done an actual experiment on varying bullet impacts like the ones we were discussing?

Stay safe.
 
General Hatcher discussed this many years ago. The heavier bullet produces greater recoil and, therefore, greater muzzle rise, resulting in a higher POI. While higher velocity can also result in greater recoil impulse, the reduced barrel dwell tends to negate the effect, especially since, at standard chamber pressures, higher muzzle velocity is achieved with lighter projectiles.
 
One thing that is often overlooked is the natural law of gravity.
Downward acceleration due to gravity on planet earth is a constant at 32ft/second/second (9.8m/s/s) Notwithstanding the weight or the mass of the object in free fall.
If you aim a rifle barrel level over a level surface and drop a bowling ball from the same height as the bore at the same moment the bullet leaves the barrel the bullet and the bowling ball will touch the ground at the same moment.
Neither weight of the bullet, temperature, ballistic coefficient or anything else will change this.
 
I did a little shooting this weekend with my model 25 in .45 Colt.
I loaded and shot 30 rounds of each:
205 grain Bear Creek supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
255 grain Bear Creek Supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
The 205 grain load hit the bullseye at POA/POI
The 255 grain load hit the bullseye with a 6 O’clock hold ~4” below the bullseye.
These shots were at 10 yards.
 
I did a little shooting this weekend with my model 25 in .45 Colt.
I loaded and shot 30 rounds of each:
205 grain Bear Creek supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
255 grain Bear Creek Supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
The 205 grain load hit the bullseye at POA/POI
The 255 grain load hit the bullseye with a 6 O’clock hold ~4” below the bullseye.
These shots were at 10 yards.
Thanks for running that test and reporting the results. I'm curious - was there a noticeable difference in recoil between the 205 grain loads and the 255 grain loads?
 
I did a little shooting this weekend with my model 25 in .45 Colt.
I loaded and shot 30 rounds of each:
205 grain Bear Creek supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
255 grain Bear Creek Supply RNFP over 8.0 grains of Unique.
The 205 grain load hit the bullseye at POA/POI
The 255 grain load hit the bullseye with a 6 O’clock hold ~4” below the bullseye.
These shots were at 10 yards.
Did you have a chance to chronograph the results?
 
There are three main factors that control POI due to differing loads. I'm going to ignore trajectory because at typical handgun ranges, this is usually not an issue

1. Gun design. Some semi-auto pistols are set up so the slide/barrel move straight backwards while the bullet is in the bore. In guns like that, there won't be much POI change from various loadings because during the time the bullet is in the bore the slide/barrel are pretty much only moving backwards--you get recoil, but the recoil isn't causing significant muzzle rise until the barrel & slide hit the frame and transfer momentum to the frame. In guns where the barrel is fixed to the frame (or some semi-autos with links where the barrel starts tilting almost immediately when the bullet starts moving) then recoil and muzzle rise happen together and you can see significant changes in POI due to different loads.

2. Muzzle momentum. More momentum means more recoil and in revolvers and other guns with the barrels fixed to the frame that means that muzzle rise starts when the bullet starts to move. The more momentum, the more it will rise. Momentum is the product of the velocity of the ejecta (everything that comes out of the muzzle) and the mass of the ejecta. This includes the gases generated by the burning powder, but for the purposes of comparison, you can often get away with just looking at the bullet momentum.

3. Barrel dwell time. In two loads with the same momentum, the one with less barrel dwell time will hit lower on the target.

So let's look at some loadings.

Let's take a 125gr bullet at 1450fps muzzle velocity and compare it to a 158gr bullet at 1147fps muzzle velocity. Both are shot from a 5" barrel gun where the barrel is fixed to the frame.

It turns out that the muzzle momentum is virtually identical for these two loads. So now we just need to see what the barrel dwell time is. We're going to estimate that by taking the average muzzle velocity while the bullet is in the barrel which is just the muzzle velocity divided by two. This estimate should be good enough to give us an idea of what is going on. We take the barrel length (converted to feet) and divide it by the average velocity in the barrel to get the estimated dwell time in seconds. These tend to be very small numbers.

It turns out that the 158gr bullet stays in the bore 26% longer than the 125gr bullet. So with the same amount of recoil (and therefore the same amount of muzzle rise in this gun design) we would expect the 158gr bullet to hit noticeably higher on the target.

What about comparing that 125gr bullet at 1450fps to a 142gr bullet at 1250fps? Again, both will be shot from a 5" barrel gun where the barrel is fixed to the frame.

This one is a little more complicated. The 142gr loading is about 2% lower in muzzle momentum but barrel dwell time is about 16% higher. I would guess that we would see a higher point of impact. Even though the muzzle momentum is a little lower, the bullet's in the barrel significantly longer.

What about a 125gr bullet at 1450fps and a 110gr bullet at 1100fps in our same test gun? Muzzle momentum is about a third lower in the 110gr loading but barrel dwell time is about a third higher. Not easy to tell if there will be a POI difference on this one. This one would give you a good excuse to go to the range and do some testing. :D
 
One thing that is often overlooked is the natural law of gravity.
Downward acceleration due to gravity on planet earth is a constant at 32ft/second/second (9.8m/s/s) Notwithstanding the weight or the mass of the object in free fall.
If you aim a rifle barrel level over a level surface and drop a bowling ball from the same height as the bore at the same moment the bullet leaves the barrel the bullet and the bowling ball will touch the ground at the same moment.
Neither weight of the bullet, temperature, ballistic coefficient or anything else will change this.

Not so fast. The topic of barrel momentum has been introduced. Momentum may be an imprecise term when we are talking about the trajectory of the projectile rather than the "muzzle jump" as perceived by shooter. Lets call it vertical exit vector. If the barrel is allowed to rise during bullet travel, would this not impart a vertical (generally upwards) velocity vector to the trajectory that would counter the effect of gravity to some extent? Eventually gravity will win, but until such a point as the acceleration due to gravity exceeds the acceleration due to muzzle rise, aren't we actually in negative G territory with a decelerating vertical velocity?

I have witnessed anti-gravity guns. Not something that Buck Rodgers carried, but a rifle or handgun that shoots "flatter," sometimes markedly so, than it should according to calculated trajectories based on ballistics and sighting vectors. They are almost universally guns with noticeable "muzzle jump." I've also seen the phenomena with rifles having a loose recoil lug bolt. Case in point. Firearm: Ruger BH .41 magnum full power loading 210JHP. In this case, the 25 yard zero is also the 100 yard zero. This should be impossible given the exterior ballistics and the height of sights. After 100, things are more in line with the ballistics tables, but there absolutely seems to be an effect on short range trajectory (100 yards and under). I have noticed the trend generally across "plow handle" handguns and rifles with significant drop at the heel and relatively light weight (cheek slappers I.E. vintage lever guns).
 
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If the barrel is allowed to rise during bullet travel, would this not impart a vertical (generally upwards) velocity vector to the trajectory that would counter the effect of gravity to some extent?
If the gun is not restrained and the circumstances are such that the muzzle recoils upward, then at the moment that the bullet exits:

1. The muzzle will be pointing upward. This will put the bullet on an upward trajectory even if the bore was level when the gun was fired.

2. The muzzle will be moving upward. This means that the bullet, in addition to being aimed slightly upward will also be "thrown" slightly upward since the bore isn't just pointed upward, it's also moving upward at the moment that the bullet exits.

A fun project would be to measure the position and velocity of the muzzle at the moment of bullet exit on a high-speed video, calculate the effect on the point of impact and then see how close the calculations come to predicting the on-target results.

Then one could break out the two effects and see how much each one contributes.
 
Not so fast. The topic of barrel momentum has been introduced. Momentum may be an imprecise term when we are talking about the trajectory of the projectile rather than the "muzzle jump" as perceived by shooter. Lets call it vertical exit vector. If the barrel is allowed to rise during bullet travel, would this not impart a vertical (generally upwards) velocity vector to the trajectory that would counter the effect of gravity to some extent? Eventually gravity will win, but until such a point as the acceleration due to gravity exceeds the acceleration due to muzzle rise, aren't we actually in negative G territory with a decelerating vertical velocity?

I have witnessed anti-gravity guns. Not something that Buck Rodgers carried, but a rifle or handgun that shoots "flatter," sometimes markedly so, than it should according to calculated trajectories based on ballistics and sighting vectors. They are almost universally guns with noticeable "muzzle jump." I've also seen the phenomena with rifles having a loose recoil lug bolt. Case in point. Firearm: Ruger BH .41 magnum full power loading 210JHP. In this case, the 25 yard zero is also the 100 yard zero. This should be impossible given the exterior ballistics and the height of sights. After 100, things are more in line with the ballistics tables, but there absolutely seems to be an effect on short range trajectory (100 yards and under). I have noticed the trend generally across "plow handle" handguns and rifles with significant drop at the heel and relatively light weight (cheek slappers I.E. vintage lever guns).
Of course if you point the muzzle up the bullet will follow a ballistic arc. Doh. Don’t do that.

I think you will find though that before the muzzle has a chance to rise the bullet has left the barrel.
 
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It can be kind of difficult to wrap one's head around the idea, but the gun definitely moves in recoil before the bullet leaves the bore. If you have a centerfire revolver, you can do a quick experiment with it to prove that this is true.

Get a straight dowel that is as close to bore diameter as you can find and put down the bore. Then place a yardstick across the top of the sights. You will see that the bore is actually aimed DOWN with respect to the line of the sights. In some revolvers, the effect is so pronounced you can see that the bore angles downward with respect to the sights just by looking.

We know that at the point the bullet exits the barrel, the barrel must be aimed slightly upwards with respect to where the bullet is supposed to hit to compensate for gravity.

Some thought will reveal that if the sights are aligned on the intended impact point at the moment of firing and the bore is aimed downward with respect to the desired point of impact at that point, then something has to happen between the time that the gun is fired and the bullet leaves the barrel. What happens is that recoil causes the muzzle to rise between the time that the gun is fired and the bullet leaves the bore.
 
Do a search for high speed video of pistol bullet leaving the barrel. You will see that the bullet is gone before the gun moves.
 
Do a search for high speed video of pistol bullet leaving the barrel.
I just gave you an iron-clad way to prove to yourself that the gun MUST move before the bullet leaves the barrel. Here are some more.

Recoil is the result of conservation of momentum. The momentum of the bullet means that the gun is imparted the same momentum as the bullet by the movement of the bullet. If that happens only AFTER the bullet is gone, how is the bullet imparting momentum to the gun when it is no longer in contact with it? Clearly it can not. So then it must happen while the bullet is still in contact with the gun--but if that is true then the gun must begin to move before the bullet loses contact with it.

For every force, there is an equal and opposite force. The gun exerts a force on the bullet that causes it to move. But an equal force is applied to the gun by the bullet that causes the gun to move. That means that the instant the bullet begins to move, the gun must also begin to move.

Finally, if you find high-speed video that is fast enough and filmed close enough to the gun to pick up the movement, it can be seen that the slide starts to move before the bullet is gone. A typical slow-motion video won't show it. The issue is that the gun is much heavier than the bullet and therefore it moves much slower. Physics says that the momentum of the recoiling mass is identical to the momentum of the bullet. If they both weigh the same, then they move at the same speed since momentum is the product of mass and velocity. But if one mass is much lighter than the other, the heavier object must move much slower if momentum is equal. Since the bullet is many times lighter than the recoiling mass, the recoiling mass will move many times slower than the bullet. That means that while the bullet moves a few inches down the barrel, the gun moves maybe a tenth of an inch or less. Hard to see in a typical slow-motion video.

Here's a video filmed at very high-speed and taken very close to the gun so even small movement is visible. At 2:13 in the video there is a closeup of a 1911 muzzle. There are 8 frames showing obvious recoil of the slide before the bullet becomes visible at the muzzle.

 
I am not disputing that there is movement of the slide. Even in your video though the bullet has left before the muzzle begins to rise. Look at 1:14 in the video you provided and the bullet is down range before the pistol starts to lift from the rest.
You can have all the slide motion you want but if the bullet is gone before the muzzle rises it is not going to affect poi.
I will also dispute your wooden rod experiment. I have laser boresight tools that cast a laser dot directly down the center of the bore. The laser dot shows up precisely at poa at sighting distance proving that with a slight correction for bore/sight parallax the two are parallel.
If what you are avowing were true the laser boresight would appear significantly lower than poa.
 
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FBC4DD5F-87AA-45F2-AA6C-3E4A1DDD6CC4.png In reality the bore actually does effectively aim up with respect to the sight line. Or you could say the sight line slants down with respect to the bore. This is to correct for the distance the sights are away from the bore and to allow you to compensate for bullet drop at the desired impact distance.
 
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Barrel dwell time, momentum, velocity, recoil are all real things in a handgun.

As a handloader, I seek heavy and light loads that have the same POI / POA out of my gun. You don’t really have good loads until you can switch without having to adjust your sights / hold out to 100 yards or so, in my humble opinion.

Example. Ruger SBH 7.5” Barrel 45 Colt POI = POA = same for two loads so far apart it’s hard to comprehend.
200gr Hornady Action Pistol 0.451” over 8 grains Hodgdon Universal at 1020fps (like a 45 ACP)
335gr Cast Perf LBT GC 0.452” over 23 grains Hodgdon H-110 at 1365fps (more like a 454)

How is this so? I’m not 100% sure, but I am sure math and physics are in play. :)
 
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