Are you stuck in "no-rifle" deer country?

BringHomeTheBacon said:

It sounds like some .243 Winchesters, .25-06's, .257 Roberts', .250-3000 Savages, .270 Winchesters, 7mm Rem Mag's, 6.5 Creedmoors and .257 Weatherby Mag's have become safe queens all over this. Arthur Savage must have seen this coming when he invented the .300 Savage.

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I am surprised I haven't seen any African style 375 and up rules.

BringHomeTheBacon said:

The Leupold VX-Freedom 2-7x33mm scope I have is a RIFLE scope. It should work well on the Savage 220 since that is a bolt-action rifle platform. The recoil should be no more stout than a .30-06 rifle and a name like Leupold is nothing cheesy.

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I blew out 2 regular rifle scopes on the 12ga Savage , a Leupold 3x9 & a Bushnell Elite. That's why I opted for something else when I "upgraded" to the 20ga models. No issues since.

BringHomeTheBacon said:

I also have a Bushnell Banner 3x9 but that is for a varmint rifle. If I get a Savage 220, might as well use that minty Leupold 2x7 I have already. I never thought it was possible to kill a Leupold. I have heard of Leupolds mounted on elephant guns up to .458 Win. Mag. and working well with good scope mounts like Conetrol. How much kick do those tusker-busters administer to scopes vs a 12 gauge?

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I mostly use Leupold scopes and I have sent them in for warranty. Sent Bushnells in also. Never owned Burris, but I have seen bad ones. Any mechanical system can fail.

Read a Barsness book on the subject. He said at the time that one German manufacturer actually recoil tested every single one of their scopes rather than a random sample. If you bought that brand of scope, you automatically got a pre-used one with a bit shorter life than other brands.

Even though I'm not and rifle season is from September 1st to February 15th, I'd still love a nice slug gun, especially for driven hunts where beaters and range are a major consideration. Currently the closest comes Benelli M3 with a 20" slug barrel I bought separately, but I've been drawn towards sabot slugs and rifled barrels lately. If not for any other reason, novelty and trying out something a bit different. Not that my choice of .44 carbine for that wasn't already a deviation from the norm of .308/9.3x62 most people use but still.

Too bad rifled slug barrels aren't very common around here, especially ones with optics mounts. I'd love to get one for the Stoeger M2000 I tuned up an restored a couple of years ago. I'll probably have to go through a bunch of red tape and source one from Turkey or maybe Canada - US export regulations are draconian to say the least and spending several hundreds of dollars for the paperwork and shipping doesn't sound too tempting.

FL-NC said:

If I had the choice in an area where "modern rifles" aren't allowed, I would pick my inline ML over a slug gun.

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I used my in-line here in NY up until they allowed rifles. I preferred it for shot placement due to better accuracy. New rifled slug barrels make it a moot point now.

Been only shotgun hunting here in MA for as long as I can remember. Hunting areas are at a premium here and very close towns/houses up against hunting areas. So they banned rifle hunting long before I was born. Any nice shotgun setup will work here due to the dense forests and typical shots well under 200 yards are common.

BringHomeTheBacon said:

Pointing the gun up into the air to clear it by shooting was rather stupid. Point it level toward a tree or a mound of dirt as a backstop, for goodness sake!

Here is an interesting article:

According to https://www.americanhunter.org/content/are-shotguns-safer-than-rifles/

"I called the Iowa Department of Natural Resources and asked for verification—after all, few people dispute that modern rifles are more accurate and have a greater maximum range on game than shotguns, so it could be that state departments are simply afraid that legalizing a more efficient arm will result in too many deer being killed. But I was promptly told by a customer service representative that “There are too many [human] populated areas [to use rifles]” and that "It's absolutely a safety issue.”

Game laws might be made to discourage efficient killing of game so certain weapons are banned in the name of "public safety".

In Oklahoma, the state game agency doesn't actually ban rifles for public lands: the property managers of their respective public hunting grounds themselves do and most WMA's and virtually all OLAP's ban rifles during gun seasons. They apparently perceive the rifle as "more dangerous".

As far as too many deer killed with efficient weapons, that's why deer tags are issued so harvest quotas aren't exceeded. If somebody is unlawfully taking a deer, regardless with shotgun, rifle or bow, they are poaching anyway. Maybe some regulators think poachers would favor efficient rifles for unlawful deer stealing. In Oklahoma, I think the public lands managers are afraid of rifles out of fear of tort lawsuits.

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Being from Illinois, we are mostly a shotgun state, although we do allow muzzleloaders and certain handguns. While I have hunted with a shotgun (Remington 20 gauge Special Field with a barrel change) before they allowed handguns, I would still prefer using a rifle which I do in other states. Where terrains limit practical range my choice is a (long out of production) Ruger .44 magnum carbine. When I am in a state where distances open up and the deer are mule deer instead of white tails, then it is going to be my Sako .243. (For the record, my first deer was taken with a surplus M-1 Carbine in central Wisconsin.) My handgun of choice in Illinois is a customized Ruger .44 magnum Super Blackhawk Hunter that has been cut to a 5" barrel.

As to Iowa's DNR, I expect they think that more tag holders would be successful at filling their tags with a rifle than they would be with a shotgun. While I don't have inside information to Iowa's hunting results, I do for Illinois and you would be surprised how many Illinois tags go unfilled and how much the Illinois DNR counts on that happening.

If I was going out to buy a shotgun to hunt deer with I would opt for a Beretta 1301 tactical so it could also serve as a self defense shotgun when not hunting deer.

When your hunting in populated areas, slugs, buckshot, and heavy slow moving bullets with terrible ballistic coefficients just don’t go very far compared to higher velocity and lighter bullet rifles.

Ricochets are also something to consider. Large and slower moving projectiles with very little aerodynamics get slowed down more upon coming into contact with things that might cause a ricochet like rocks, hard ground and bodies of water. Because of their weight, they tend to plow into things a bit more before taking flight again which saps marginally more energy from them.

When MI first allowed the use of elevated stands in the nineties, the number of hunting related shooting accidents in the shotgun only areas went from a few here and there to virtually zero. These mostly include cars and houses being struck by projectiles with no other injuries. Sometimes there are injuries. Ricochets can happen from an elevated perch as well and from my research back in the nineties, are more likely with higher velocity bottleneck rifle rounds.

However, as far as hunting accidents involving hunter on hunter, I cannot see how shotguns or straight wall cartridges can be any safer than rifles and in most hunter on hunter accidents, I can see how a shotgun or large projectile straight wall cartridge could be more dangerous. Large heavy bullets penetrate through light cover better than lighter bullets. This is not the same thing as the brush gun myth. The brush gun myth implies aiming and accuracy is retained through the brush. This however is saying that heavy bullets just use brute force to plow through brush better regardless of the bumps and sidesteps they take and potentially hit someone on the other side who is unseen by the shooter.

FL-NC said:

If I had the choice in an area where "modern rifles" aren't allowed, I would pick my inline ML over a slug gun.

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Yeah, like a CVA Paramount. I have shot a friend's out to 250 yards.

kudu said:

Indiana was shotgun only for years, then opened up handgun hunting for deer with .357 Mag and larger pistol rounds with a case length of a .357 Mag, .45acp were out, too short. Lots of detailed numbers describing. Thompson Contenders were kings with pistol rounds and .35 Remington chamberings up to 45-70 chamberings. After a few years they allowed pistol caliber rifles with not to exceed brass lengths but no real upper size for bullet diameter. We are allowed now to use most any high power rifle round .24 caliber on up on private land to hunt deer with. Now if you wanted to go squirrel hunting nothing says you can't use a .30-06 or .375 H&H or even a .50BMG. Makes no sense on some things.

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Governments are really good at taking simple things and complicating the hell out of them.

I deer hunt in IL a fair bit. I’ve tried the slug barrels, prefer my Knight muzzle-loader the vast majority of the time.

I don’t mind a little fiddling with the setup. Once in the field, speed loaders are ready an easy reload.

A few years ago I did a shoot-off, Knight M-L against the slug barrel on my Browning Gold. The M-L won handily.

Here in SC I think we may have the most lax restrictions in the country for what you can use on deer.

On public (WMA) lands, it has to be centerfire single projectile that's not FMJ (or armor piercing, tracer, incendiary). Even a .22 Hornet or 9mm PCC are legal if its not shooting FMJ. Not a good idea obviously, but technically legal.

If you're using a muzzle-loader it has to be at least .36 cal.

On private land even those restrictions go out the window and there aren't really any equipment restrictions.

That said if I had to use a shotgun and didn't have the option of using a straight-walled rifle cartridge like the .350 Legend, those 20ga Savage bolt guns look really nice. I'd probably opt for a rifled pump barrel with a cantilever scope mount though, just for cheaper cost.

There are several here whose posts and inputs convinced me to buy a 220. Lost my hunting area in the rifle zone, so made the switch and have been happy so far. Shot a buddy’s 870 slug barreled smoothbore the first year, didn’t find recoil unbearable, but when I’m looking at a deer, recoil isn’t even on the priority list.
Armoredfarmer gave me some solid advice on the 220 as a choice, and I made the jump once I found a leftie 220. Ammo is currently a different matter. Changing to a new bore/caliber in the midst of a pandemic isn’t the best of timing. Remington being in the midst of a bankruptcy didn’t help either. Took me 7 months to find a couple boxes of Remington 3” 20 ga Accutip, and the 220 shows a decided preference for them over the 2 3/4.

It’s a great shooting gun, and I would strongly encourage a purchase.

If I were in a restricted state I would opt for my Inline-ML over a shotgun.

Missouri is not restrictive however and allows almost any type of rifle/handgun/shotgun to be used for the 10 days of the main firearms season, as shown below.

Safety wise, the Missouri Dept of Conservation Reported 4 firearm related instances for the entire 2021 deer season, which consisted of 3 injuries, 1 fatality, all of which were self inflicted.

Allowed
Centerfire rifles or handguns using expanding-type bullets such as lead or copper
Shotguns (including .410) with slugs only
Air-powered guns, .40 caliber or larger, charged only from an external high-compression power source (external hand pump, air tank, or air compressor)
Muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms, .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one dis-charge. In-lines and scopes are allowed.
Multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger, are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzle-loading or cap-and-ball rifle.
Air bows
Longbows, compound bows, and recurve bows of any draw weight. Hand-held string-releasing devices, illuminated sights, scopes, and quickpoint sights are allowed.
Crossbows
Atlatls

Prohibited
Self-loading firearms with capacity of more than 11 cartridges in magazine and chamber combined
Ammunition propelling more than one projectile at a single discharge (such as buckshot)
Full hard metal case projectiles
Fully automatic firearms
Any sighting device that casts a beam of light on the game
Electronic calls and electronically activated calls
Night vision, infrared, and thermal imagery equipment
Bait
Dogs
Additional methods may be prohibited by local ordinances

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HowieG said:

Governments are really good at taking simple things and complicating the hell out of them.

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My state law requires wearing 144 square inches of hunter orange clothing while hunting. It is annoying to measure new hunting gear with a tape measure and calculator. I am thankful for spending 8 years in the military. Where being told to do something stupid by someone barely competent was a near daily occurrence.

herrwalther said:

My state law requires wearing 144 square inches of hunter orange clothing while hunting. It is annoying to measure new hunting gear with a tape measure and calculator. I am thankful for spending 8 years in the military. Where being told to do something stupid by someone barely competent was a near daily occurrence.

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Yeah, that blaze orange stuff is pretty stupid. Colorado used to do it back when I was a kid. Don't know if they still do. Colorado still had hunters getting shot in spite of the blaze orange.

I know exactly what you mean about the military. I couldn't even go back and do that again. My BS meter pegs too easily now.

herrwalther said:

My state law requires wearing 144 square inches of hunter orange clothing while hunting.

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HowieG said:

Yeah, that blaze orange stuff is pretty stupid.

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I don't know how much I support "mandates," but I'm a firm believer in wearing blaze orange. It's not required in my state, and I rarely see anyone wearing it, but I wear it from the waist up. Deer family can't see color anyway, so natural color camo is more about style than function, although, I do prefer a camo pattern on my orange gear. In the end, blaze is a poor seller here, so none of the hunting stores carry it.

herrwalther said:

It is annoying to measure new hunting gear with a tape measure and calculator.

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Seriously? It's anything other than a cap or hat. That rule is only there to force you to wear a vest, which is what the powers that be want. Still, it seems odd to buy a bunch of camo clothing, only to cover it with a big orange flag.

I have a Savage 212. Other than being heavy and rather unweildy, it's a very accurate gun. I have mine topped with Warne QD rings and a Bushnell Prime 1-4X.


First, it seems to be built very well. The stock has an aluminum chassis:


And there is a steel pillar in the rear:


It's all steel, even the bottom metal. Everything goes together very solidly.

Recoil is dappened by the weight. Shooting from a Lead Sled helps, too.


The barrel has a moderate 1:35 twist (not sure if it's the same in the 20 gauge). It has reasonable accuracy with heavy slugs, like Remingtoin AccuTip 385 grain, shooting about a 2.5" pattern at 100 yards. However, it groups very fast, light, Hornady SST 300 grain slugs very well. It will print very close to a 1" group at 100 yards. (Disregard the upper right shot, it's not part of the 3 shot group.)


The downside of the gun is the weight. The magazine protrudes right at the bottom balance point making carrying akward. Followup shots are slow. The magazine is not the highest quality. Sometimes the double extractors will loose their grip on Hornady rims leaving the empty laying in the ejection port (that's the subject of a whole different thread, since I believe that's a Hornady, not a gun, issue.) These are the negatives that jump out at me. Otherwise, it's a nice gun, particularly if you are hunting from a stand. It's a relatively new gun for me and I've only hunted with it twice and haven't killed anything with it, though I did put my crosshairs on a turkey when they were in season this last fall, but decided not to pull the trigger.

When I still hunt, I prefer a pump slug gun. My Ithaca M37 with its 1:24 twist barrel doesn't shoot Hornady SSTs well at all, but will print very good patterns shooting the much heavier Remington AccuTips. It's lighter, easier to carry, and much faster to cycle. But I would keep distances to under 100 yards.


With my Savage 212, I would have no problems covering an area out to 150 or more.

D.B. Cooper said:

I don't know how much I support "mandates," but I'm a firm believer in wearing blaze orange. It's not required in my state, and I rarely see anyone wearing it, but I wear it from the waist up. Deer family can't see color anyway, so natural color camo is more about style than function, although, I do prefer a camo pattern on my orange gear. In the end, blaze is a poor seller here, so none of the hunting stores carry it.



Seriously? It's anything other than a cap or hat. That rule is only there to force you to wear a vest, which is what the powers that be want. Still, it seems odd to buy a bunch of camo clothing, only to cover it with a big orange flag.

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What New Mexico does that works is a draw system with a lot of hunts spread out over a number of hunt units over several months. You have to apply for the draw and state your desired hunt based on the species you want to go after. There are a finite number of licenses per hunt code. That cuts down on the density of hunters stuffed into one area during any period of time. So, you have much less chance of seeing people and much less chance to get shot. I can't remember when I last saw a press report about a hunter succumbing to friendly fire.

HowieG said:

What New Mexico does that works is a draw system with a lot of hunts spread out over a number of hunt units over several months. You have to apply for the draw and state your desired hunt based on the species you want to go after. There are a finite number of licenses per hunt code. That cuts down on the density of hunters stuffed into one area during any period of time. So, you have much less chance of seeing people and much less chance to get shot. I can't remember when I last saw a press report about a hunter succumbing to friendly fire.

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Sounds like a lot of folks in NM who would like to hunt don't get to hunt.

No system is perfect, but at least I know I'm going to be able hunt every year, even if i don't draw a tag. That said, the restrictions on what constitutes a legal animal are so high that I've only been successful on drawn tags, as opposed to general season hunts. So perhaps it's all a wash.

D.B. Cooper said:

Sounds like a lot of folks in NM who would like to hunt don't get to hunt.

No system is perfect, but at least I know I'm going to be able hunt every year, even if i don't draw a tag. That said, the restrictions on what constitutes a legal animal are so high that I've only been successful on drawn tags, as opposed to general season hunts. So perhaps it's all a wash.

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We aren't a high population state, but you do have to get lucky sometimes especially if you are trying for a hunt in a really prime area for a species. Or a species with tighter controls due to low numbers. Bighorn for instance is a once in a lifetime draw. On the other hand, there are usually extra depredation hunts, incentive hunts, etc.

Another benefit for me at least is I get a 50% veteran's discount as well as a senior discount, so I pay next to nothing for a license and tag.