KEL-TEC shipping $200K worth of SUB-2000's to Ukraine

Havok7416 said:

The $200k number looks huge but it only comes out to 400 guns (per the article). I'm sure anything is appreciated there, but that's nothing but a drop in the bucket over there. Hopefully there are enough mags to make the guns viable. Kellgren doesn't mention how many come with each gun. The standard retail arrangement is 1 mag per gun.

Click to expand...

Looks like about $500 per gun, Which they retail for 450ish. Maybe they included 5 or 10 mags with each one.

JCooperfan1911 said:

There is little to no place for a novelty semi-auto only 9mm sporting carbine in direct line combat.

If select fire it could be useful, but frankly Kel-Tec is not the name I’d want to see stamped on the side of my weapon in a warzone. The things are held together with Phillips head screws and glue.

Clearly, these weapons were meant for civilian enthusiasts before the war kicked off. Now Kel-Tec gets to virtue signal AND it’s free advertisement that their goofy little peashooter plastic carbine is going off to war! What a joke.

Click to expand...

I would rather have a Keltec sub2000 then a brick or stick. Think about it that way.

Robbins290 said:

Looks like about $500 per gun, Which they retail for 450ish. Maybe they included 5 or 10 mags with each one.

Click to expand...

They retail for that amount here in the US. Shipping, tariffs and related costs add up when going international.

The more Russians who are killed by the Ukrainians means fewer NATO will have to smoke. They have proven they can beat the Russian military forces when standing toe to toe with them. For the love of God send them whatever they need and do it now. I'm so sick of all the cowards who run this country.

someguy2800 said:

They have been a multi party democracy since 1996. A highly corrupt one nonetheless but so is ours.

Click to expand...

A convenient and easy to sell narrative by the powers that be at that time.

JShirley said:

I'm pretty sure you have no accurate basis for any of the statements you're making. The US military has been training Ukraine for almost 10 years.

And, trust me, I've given this at least a few "minutes of thought", including when I was talking to Ukrainian students here at the fort.

For everyone else who's willing to devote 10 whole minutes of research, there was essentially regime change in 2014, when the pro-Putin, corrupt leader Yanukovych fled to Russia. It's not like the CIA Factbook describes the situation in detail, or anything...

Click to expand...

My basis is the Ukrainian and Russian families that have been my coworkers, apprentices and friends since the mid 90s who still have families there and news sources outside of the main stream media. Relying on the CIA Factbook for accurate info about anything they are involved with is naive on a good day. Step outside of the google search engine for looks at both sides of the story.
No disrespect meant to anyone reading this. I have seen enough bs come from our own government to be highly skeptical of anything they are trying to sell us.

I hope the Russians don't end up with them.

I have seen a piece at another firearms blog on weapons photographed in use in Ukraine.
I have had my mind boggled by looking through the loooong list of Ukrainian small arms at Wikipedia.
They have found uses for every small arm ever made anywhere.
I am sure that Kel Tec Sub 2000s well do some good even if only used in rear echelons to free up standard issue weapns for the front line.

Ukraine is taking mounted solenoid-fired machineguns from Russian tanks and fighting vehicles, constructing shoulder stocks and pistol grips with conventional triggers, and turning them into infantry weapons. I'll bet if a gun shoots standard NATO or Russian caliber ammo, it can be used there.

The Kel Tech Sub 2000s guns had been ordered four months ago by a concern in Odesa, Ukraine. By the time the export/import paperwork was OK'd Odesa was under siege by Russian forces. Kel Tech then had the shipment (already in Europe or in transit) re-routed to a NATO source already supplying Ukraine.

I remember this photograph from the 1957 World Book annual covering the year 1956.
Budapest, Hungary, 1956 Soviet Invasion. I was about nine y.o. at the time.

I take it at face value and say, good show Kal-Tec! There are no civilians in this war. Russia has seen to that from the outset by violating every rule of war.

Ukrainians are fighting back with Molotov cocktail, for Pete Sake. They need all the help they can get. Whatever Kal-Tec's motivations are, people will be inspired to help by stories like this. Until someone can show otherwise I see Kel-Tec's Adrien Kellgren as trying to do the right thing, and lead by example.

Here's another article from NBC where it talks about people adding to his shipment with the blessing of government agencies that make a transfer like this possible. This is a new kind of war. I have friends from many parts of the world helping in whatever way they can. Enough drops in the bucket will fill it up soon enough.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...-being-shipped-to-help-ukraine-fight/3606622/

Pretty sure if Canada wanted to join an explicitly anti-US military alliance after its government was subverted in 2014 by anti-Western interests, we’d have something to say about that too, from a strategic perspective. Only in Russia’s case, Ukraine has only been more or less a part of their country or in their sphere of influence for around 700 years or so.

I’m not pro-Russia by any stretch, but the crazy jingoism in the West gives me the willies, if only because it shows we have learned very little about jumping into ill-advised foreign wars just because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy. That and I’d rather not find out if nuclear fallout actually makes you glow….

These Kel-Tec rifles will have absolutely NO impact on this conflict. It is just virtue signaling and a publicity stunt. Also the arguments that Putin won't stop at Ukraine is kind of stupid because every Nation West of Ukraine is NATO and it would bring us WWIII where no one wins. If Putin wanted WWIII he would just launch the nukes already. Ukraine is not NATO and it does not deserve the protections of NATO. Ukraine is hopelessly corrupt and was just a piggy bank for our own corrupt politicians. They might as well be Russians themselves as far as I am concerned.

I think before you go into a fight you need to know who your enemy is.

Mosin77 said:

Pretty sure if Canada wanted to join an explicitly anti-US military alliance after its government was subverted in 2014 by anti-Western interests, we’d have something to say about that too, from a strategic perspective. Only in Russia’s case, Ukraine has only been more or less a part of their country or in their sphere of influence for around 700 years or so.

Click to expand...

So your claim is that in 2014 the Ukrainian government was subverted by anti-Russian forces? From the other side of the coin, we could just as easily say that in 2013 the Ukrainian gov't was subverted by pro-Russian forces -- namely Yanukovych, who backtracked on the parliament's decision to try for EU membership. EU isn't NATO. It's not a military alliance. If anything, Ukraine post-Yanukovych is more democratic and less corrupt than before. That's what's really driving Putin insane.

Ireland was "more or less a part" of England for about 700 years too. Should the Brits try to take it back?

toivo said:

So your claim is that in 2014 the Ukrainian government was subverted by anti-Russian forces? From the other side of the coin, we could just as easily say that in 2013 the Ukrainian gov't was subverted by pro-Russian forces -- namely Yanukovych, who backtracked on the parliament's decision to try for EU membership. EU isn't NATO. It's not a military alliance. If anything, Ukraine post-Yanukovych is more democratic and less corrupt than before. That's what's really driving Putin insane.

Ireland was "more or less a part" of England for about 700 years too. Should the Brits try to take it back?

Click to expand...

Ireland is a bit of a different case, but if they’d tried to join the Warsaw Pact, then absolutely the Brits would have felt it justified (as many may still do) to take it back.

Domino said:

Also the arguments that Putin won't stop at Ukraine is kind of stupid because every Nation West of Ukraine is NATO and it would bring us WWIII where no one wins.

Click to expand...

Ummmm…the Moldovans might be concerned a bit?

They too are not part of NATO, I’m sure Vlad has a map marking non-NATO countries over there prime for the taking.

I’m all for countries population fighting for their own freedoms especially when they are succeeding. I don’t pretend to know all the geo-political ins and outs, but I can think logically.

A corrupt fledgling democracy needs resources to defend their lands from an aggressor, we’ve seen this CIA data package before as well as the movie script. International aid is often ugly, and unbalanced. I don’t trust Russia, Ukraine or even our own government but helping Ukraine with small arms in my opinion with the facts available is the right thing to do.

And Javelins, stingers and small arms are doing a number at making Russian army look weak outside of their big stick which is the threat of nukes.

So if Keltec supplies some more arms pointing north than I say good on Keltec. If I were a Ukrainian civilian I would like a sub-2000 to supplement my molatovs.

Wonder if any other US private companies have done similarly to Keltec? I’m guess Ukraine has a good source of Glock magazines to feed those? It is my assumption that would be the magazine of choice for them.

A sub-2000 is no AR or AK but it does well putting a little distance between a Ukrainian and a Russian.

Mosin77 said:

Ireland is a bit of a different case, but if they’d tried to join the Warsaw Pact, then absolutely the Brits would have felt it justified (as many may still do) to take it back.

Click to expand...

The Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in the early 90’s when the Soviet Union collapsed.

These moral equivalence arguments are just intellectually lazy and full of logic flaws. The premise you paint exists nowhere but in your own imagination.

The “Warsaw Pact” is/was not the same as NATO, and therefore, using that premise to draw a hypothetical “what if” parallel between Ukraine and Ireland is plain silliness.