Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

Airborne77 said:
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Really ? I've never shot any matches I have seen articles where people were getting those size groups at 1000yds I figured 600 yard winners were doing 1.5 or better. Either way I'm happy just banging steel and jugs at 600 off my back porch. Hell that's just slight better than 1/2 moa. The rifle does look alittle better now .since that pic I have added a harris bipod that tilts and swivels also some weights to better spot my shots.:D
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I think the national record for a 600 yard F Class match is 200 29x

What that equates to is 29 shots in a row inside the X ring, which is 3” in diameter.

If you and your new rig are capable of 2.5” you have a date with destiny
 
This isn’t my best 600 yard score but it will give you some context. It was a 200 14x where 2 sighters and 20 shots for record were all in the 10 ring (6”) and 14 were in the X ring (3”)

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I’m running a custom Kelbly Panda chambered in 6 BRA riding on a Farley front rest and a Kahles 10-50x56 scope. It consistently shoots 5 shot groups at 100 yards between 0.1 and 0.2 MOA

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I’ve got somewhere north of $5k invested with countless hours of practice and load development and even on my best day I’m nowhere near 2.5” MOA all day at 600 yards
 
@Airborne77 - exactly my point. The articles you mentioned reading about a 2.5” group at 1000 yards was a ONCE IN RECORDED HISTORY world record. World records aren’t broken every match - and typically aren’t even threatened.

A lot of us get lucky and hang onto itty bitty targets at long range, which is largely a matter of statistical probability. A rifle which shoots a true 1moa will hit within 1/3moa 68% of the time, and within 2/3moa 95% of the time, so things like hitting half MOA steel at distance happens far, far more often than we’d expect when we’re breaking life down into hits and misses. But holding onto groups reliably for 2.5” at 600yrds with factory rifles by folks who aren’t living and breathing competition hasn’t been a reliable deliverable for any human so far. So you can appreciate our skeptical cynicism.
 
I shot this .144 in a registered Benchrest match, small group of the aggregate. If I could do that all the time......well....... :)
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An example, group on left was the 2nd group of the aggregate, the 3rd group I shot in that aggregate is on the right, same gun,
same range, same bench, same shooter, same bullets/load........ I saved those as a reminder, yes, group 3 cost me placing.
One shot out of 25 did me in. Shooting small groups is hard and takes a great rifle, shooting really tiny groups "all day long" is
usually a slight exaggeration by well meaning folks bragging on their rifle. :)
Two Benchrest Targets.JPG
 
Varminterror said:
@Airborne77 - exactly my point. The articles you mentioned reading about a 2.5” group at 1000 yards was a ONCE IN RECORDED HISTORY world record. World records aren’t broken every match - and typically aren’t even threatened.

A lot of us get lucky and hang onto itty bitty targets at long range, which is largely a matter of statistical probability. A rifle which shoots a true 1moa will hit within 1/3moa 68% of the time, and within 2/3moa 95% of the time, so things like hitting half MOA steel at distance happens far, far more often than we’d expect when we’re breaking life down into hits and misses. But holding onto groups reliably for 2.5” at 600yrds with factory rifles by folks who aren’t living and breathing competition hasn’t been a reliable deliverable for any human so far. So you can appreciate our skeptical cynicism.
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Like I said it's definitely on a calm day which I'm sure never happens on competition day. I think that's why I usually don't do competition's is the fact someone always gets butt hurt. I don't live and breath competition. I have been shooting since I can remember. Handloading since my freshmen year in high school , qualified expert in the military ,was a shooting coach, burned up more ammo than most people have ever seen. Worn out several weapons and dozens of barrels. So no u don't have to be driven by competition. You just have to be driven. Actually I can't take credit for the groups, the rifle pretty much does that after the bipod and bags are adjusted. I just have to break the trigger without messing anything up..lol
 
Nature Boy said:
This isn’t my best 600 yard score but it will give you some context. It was a 200 14x where 2 sighters and 20 shots for record were all in the 10 ring (6”) and 14 were in the X ring (3”)

View attachment 1086052

I’m running a custom Kelbly Panda chambered in 6 BRA riding on a Farley front rest and a Kahles 10-50x56 scope. It consistently shoots 5 shot groups at 100 yards between 0.1 and 0.2 MOA

View attachment 1086053

I’ve got somewhere north of $5k invested with countless hours of practice and load development and even on my best day I’m nowhere near 2.5” MOA all day at 600 yards
Click to expand...
That's some nice shooting when u do those 20 round strings do u shoot fast to be in the same wind or slow to allow your barrel to cool ? I usually don't shoot more than 5. If I'm just shooting targets for groups I like to take my time on wind free days. However if I'm shooting with friends on windy days I try to shoot faster to have more consistent wind. In my younger years 30 round mags were to small. Now I only load 5 in my 20 round m1a...lol
 
Nature Boy said:
consistently shoots 5 shot groups at 100 yards between 0.1 and 0.2 MOA
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I've developed loads for 2 rifles now that would print one hole groups at 100 yds then at 600were around 6"-8" groups. My velocity was usually within 15fps shot to shot but the groups were just not there. I actually thought that was going to be it for these rifles but kept at it. And was able to get them both down to the 2.5 " mark. One is a 3006 remington long range with leupold mark 4 . It shot great at 100 with 168 grn sierra bthp but at distance 190grn sierra's bthp that would only shoot .5" groups at 100yds were dramatically out doing them.which kinda makes no sense but I guess the twist is just perfect to put those heavy bullets to sleep.
 
The 6.5 I was talking about earlier wouldn't shoot how I wanted it to at first unless I single fed it due to mag lenth restrictions but who wants a repeater to be a single shot.and I was seeing all these longrange competitions on tv hitting at distance with 10 round shot strings. Soooo I started some research and found that berger would recommend starting at mag lenth then seat your bullet .030" deeper and fire a group then repeat while being safe and watching for pressure of course. My groups were all over an inch and then the magic happened right around 1/16 of an inch deeper than my single shot load one hole groups and they fit in the magazine. Before this I had always worked my way closer to the lands thinking accuracy only improved that direction ....always more to learn.
 
Nature Boy said:
That bench rest record will be hard, if not impossible to beat
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Glenn Kulzer got close with this 2.69 10 shot group last June. ( I was there if you recall)
Observation;
Wind blows rounds into a group as easily as out of a cluster and the fine tuned load can vary from day to day and range to range. Aggregate/average group size over several days or events tells the bigger story of how well the shooter not only tunes the rifle but tunes equipment and one’s self.

Nature boy i love that set up. Btw
 

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Airborne77 said:
when u do those 20 round strings do u shoot fast to be in the same wind or slow to allow your barrel to cool
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F Class matches, a sub set of NRA High Power, are shot prone, single load, slow fire. You have 22 minutes to shoot your sighters and 20 rounds for record. The pace of fire is somewhat dictated by the pits as the target is lowered, a shot maker placed in the hole left by the last shot and then raised back up for the next shot. During those 5-8 seconds conditions can and do change, therefore, it becomes a wind reading game.

Look, no one is questioning your experience, dedication to the hobby or the quality of your rifle, however, as Carl Sagan said:

El-7JnJX0AEqab7?format=jpg&name=4096x4096.jpg

Take my own experience out of it for a minute. My range happens to have some very accomplished marksman. It is the home range to the US Service Rifle Team. Our monthly club matches often attract current and past national champions. Regional NRA matches held there will have a few record holders in attendance.

And not a single one of them can shoot 2.5” all day at 600 yards. Not one.
 
Agree 100% I always d
South Prairie Jim said:
Glenn Kulzer got close with a 2.69 10 shot group last June. ( I was there if you recall)
Observation;
Wind blows rounds into a group as easily as out of a cluster and the fine tuned load can vary from day to day and range to range. Aggregate/average group size over several days or events tells the bigger story of how well the shooter not only tunes the rifle but tunes equipment and one’s self.

Nature boy i love that set up. Btw
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Agree 100% I always do a final deciding test on a load by shooting it 3 different days to prove it's worth.
 
I tested out some NRL-22 steel this morning. On top is Target Hanging Solutions hanger and paddles, bottom is X Steel hanger and paddles. I wanted to see how they reacted when getting hit all over and see if they would hang up or not before buying more. The X Steel paddles have a bigger slot with smaller hooks on the hanger, Target Hanging Solutions were a much closer fit of paddle slot to hanger hook.
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The X Steel paddles (on the right) really had life to them, really jumped when hit, sometimes swinging side to side making a follow up shot harder/more fun, I even made the bottom X Steel paddle swing 180 degrees in a full circle a couple of revolutions. With its wide slot, they would sometimes hang slightly tilted right or left, but not enough to matter.

The Target Hanging Solutions paddles jumped less, with almost no side to side movement, good for a fast follow up shot. They always hung straight down, though sometimes tilted a hair forward or back, but not enough to matter.

So if you like to see steel jump, get the X Steel set up. If you like boring, unlikely to ever tilt sideways making a shot very difficult, you may want the TGS set up, although neither brand did that today. I have seen it at matches, I just don't know what kind they were.

I like both setups, but figure the kids will like the more reactive X Steel set up better.

I set them out at 65 yards. You can see other targets out further, the last target is at 113.5 yards.
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My first four shots.
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Here are all of my shots, I hit them on the edges a lot to see how they would react, swing, hand up, whatever, but they never
failed to hang back down with the full face of the paddle visible.
IMG_8386.JPG

I shot the paddles off the bench today, but my buddy Jeff and I have been using the Tank Trap I built to practice steadiness on barricades. We are shooting an NRL-22 match at Altus tomorrow.
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I had a very good day today at the NRL-22 match at Altus. I took top old guy and 7th overall. They haven't posted it on Practiscore yet, so I don't know my actual "score" yet, but I beat my buddy Jeff for a change. Serves him right, he didn't take a single pic of me, I always take some of him. :)
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Nature Boy said:
This isn’t my best 600 yard score but it will give you some context. It was a 200 14x where 2 sighters and 20 shots for record were all in the 10 ring (6”) and 14 were in the X ring (3”)

View attachment 1086052

I’m running a custom Kelbly Panda chambered in 6 BRA riding on a Farley front rest and a Kahles 10-50x56 scope. It consistently shoots 5 shot groups at 100 yards between 0.1 and 0.2 MOA

View attachment 1086053

I’ve got somewhere north of $5k invested with countless hours of practice and load development and even on my best day I’m nowhere near 2.5” MOA all day at 600 yards
Click to expand...


@Nature Boy


What rear bag is that?
 
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