Hp38 barrel fouling 45 acp

Big-bore-bob said:

Got out to the range today with the 1911, fired 200 rounds of my hp38/rmr load. Cleaned the barrel with montana extreme copper solvent and jb bore paste. Took 9 separate patches saturated with JB and the solvent 60-100 strokes per patch to clean the fouling out. None of the copper solvent patches came out blue like they do with copper fouling, I've never fired lead bullets but I think this might be lead fouling somehow. What do you all think? The pics are before and after the vigorous scrubbing View attachment 1161876View attachment 1161878 View attachment 1161879

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JB Bore cleaner is the best I have found, I use Sweets for my copper solvent cleaner. When I had a barrel that was doing that I would use the Bore Paste to polish the bore. Once I did this I no longer had the problem. But your right. If you have that rough of a barrel you will definitely have leading while shooting lead bullets.

Sure looks like lead. The copper jacket may be to thin. The lands are cutting into the pure lead core. The same has happened to plated bullets

Coat some bullets with Lee Liquid Alox. May fix the problem, lead, copper of what ever.

Walkalong said:

FMJ bullets did that?

W-231/HP-38 and jacketed bullets leave my 1911 bores shiny and clean

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Same here. I can't understand what happened in your barrel.

Big-bore-bob said:

Yep rmr 230gr fmj did this after only 200 rounds, I noticed the box the bullets were shipped in had some large-ish flakes of lead in it that I assume came from the exposed end of the fmj. If there were loose flakes of lead left on the rear end of the fmj from the manufacturing process is it possible it's melting off and depositing in the leade of my barrels?

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What kind of crimp are you applying? Is it possible you're breaking through the case and exposing the lead core?Leading doesn't usually come from the base of a bullet but from the sides of a bullet.

My 1911 barrel looks like this after a range session as well, but I'm shooting coated bullets and not jacketed. I'm using a light load of W231.

But my barrel comes clean with a few patches, and maybe 15~20 total strokes of all patches combined. I do use a brass brush first to break everything up, maybe five or six passes before using patches. In fairness, my 1911 has had over 10K rounds through it, and that may have polished the barrel a bit.

I'm very curious to see what the final solution is.

chris

This is my solution to hard fowling be it lead or carbon in my .45. Copper chore boy wrapped around brass brush makes short work of either one.

I’m not the photographer y’all are but here are two from my 5” 1911.

First pic is after about 100 rds combined of 5.0gr HP38 w/230gr plated RN & 5.0gr Sport Pistol w/230gr RN Acme coated.

Second picture is same barrel after running a dry Q-tip through just once.

Big-bore-bob said:

Got out to the range today with the 1911, fired 200 rounds of my hp38/rmr load. Cleaned the barrel with montana extreme copper solvent and jb bore paste. Took 9 separate patches saturated with JB and the solvent 60-100 strokes per patch to clean the fouling out. None of the copper solvent patches came out blue like they do with copper fouling, I've never fired lead bullets but I think this might be lead fouling somehow. What do you all think? The pics are before and after the vigorous scrubbing View attachment 1161876View attachment 1161878 View attachment 1161879

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The before doesn’t look all that terrible to me. I don’t know why it’s being so stubborn to remove though. Genuinely puzzling. I’m an old guy who still uses Hoppe’s No.9, bronze brushes, and old cut up T-shirts for patches on a loop for cleaning so it takes me all of about five minutes to clean a 1911A1 - but I’m not going for a mirror polish either. If you ran a fiber patch soaked with Sweet’s down my barrel right now it would probably come out gray. Don’t care. Shoots the same whether it’s factory shiny or lazy old man gray. I assured myself of that back in the last century.
I hope you figure it out since this is vexing and you say it is effecting accuracy.

FWIW and prolly no help; I use a lot of RMR 45 FMJ bullets over a "classic" load of Bullseye. Much of the time after a range session, maybe 200 rounds per gun, I pull a bore snake through the barrel (Ruger P90, RIA 1911. High Point 4595). Normally once or twice is good. So, I wouldn't think the bullets are the cause of the fouling...

Big-bore-bob said:

Well here's a picture of an rmr 230gr fmj cut in half... the jacket looks really thick. There's no way I'm crimping through this thing. I'm leaning towards the powder being the issue. Today I took out the USP 45, fired 264 rounds of the rmr 230gr over 6.4gr cfe pistol, 1.26 coal, rem 2 1/2 primer. While I did have similar streaking in the leade I was able to clean it out with about 20 passes of JB bore paste and a couple patches (probably didn't even need that many passes but I was expecting it to be harder than it was). At a 5.5 grain charge of hp38, could heat and incomplete combustion of powder cause the fouling to bake into the lands of the rifling? (It seems like the slower CFE burns cooler). Perhaps a stronger crimp on the bullet will cause a more efficient burn leading to less fouling? As I pointed out in my previous post winchester crimps very aggressively on their fmj rounds, the powder charge in the factory round I pulled weighed 5.3gr and looked identical to hp38. Their velocities are on par with my 5.5gr load. Maybe my crimp is too light. Thoughts?View attachment 1162213

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That’s a nice bullet.
The only crimp I have ever used with W231 and a similar 230gr FMJ is a light touch with the Lee FCD. Typically can’t even feel it in the handle but it shows up on a mic.
I’m really perplexed by this but I guess trying a deeper crimp can’t really hurt.

Try a different cleaning regimen.
First use a patch with bore solvent. Let it soak a minute or so.
Then run a bronze bore brush through it for several strokes.
Then a clean patch, and THEN inspect.
If you must, repeat until the clean patch comes out clean.

Use the JB to “polish” out the copper fouling.
I used Shooters Choice bore solvent for decades.
A bronze brush with a patch wrapped is my method for using JB.

I’ve loaded a number of JUGS (8lbs) of HP38/231 loading .38, 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45 and a plethora of others. Most fouling I encountered was lube from cast bullets.
Or, black carbon/graphite soot.

Big-bore-bob said:

Well here's a picture of an rmr 230gr fmj cut in half... the jacket looks really thick. There's no way I'm crimping through this thing. I'm leaning towards the powder being the issue. Today I took out the USP 45, fired 264 rounds of the rmr 230gr over 6.4gr cfe pistol, 1.26 coal, rem 2 1/2 primer. While I did have similar streaking in the leade I was able to clean it out with about 20 passes of JB bore paste and a couple patches (probably didn't even need that many passes but I was expecting it to be harder than it was). At a 5.5 grain charge of hp38, could heat and incomplete combustion of powder cause the fouling to bake into the lands of the rifling? (It seems like the slower CFE burns cooler). Perhaps a stronger crimp on the bullet will cause a more efficient burn leading to less fouling? As I pointed out in my previous post winchester crimps very aggressively on their fmj rounds, the powder charge in the factory round I pulled weighed 5.3gr and looked identical to hp38. Their velocities are on par with my 5.5gr load. Maybe my crimp is too light. Thoughts?View attachment 1162213

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I strongly suggest, as others have too, it’s not the powder, per se

See my post above using same powder but only 5.0gr of it w/plated 230gr RN bullet.

My before photo shows barrel no where near as dirty as yours is @ 5.5gr. For mine, one pass of a dry Q-tip and I’d be tempted to call it done.

I’m not sure what you think more taper crimp will do, increase bullet tension and thus pressure? Don’t think so, but that’s a religious debate in itself and we’ve had lengthy threads on that very topic.

I don’t even taper crimp all of my 45acp loads. Maybe 50-75% that’s all & only when needed to remove any flare so they plunk/pass gauge.

Now, if by crimping you’re suggesting you need to increase bullet tension that’s different and may be a factor but you’re not there yet in my view. Have you tested for set back? I now use an undersized sizing die to ensure greater tension.

Now back to the powder you are using…is it fresh, clean, in its original container? Could it possibly be contaminated? If it’s not contaminated or have some other issue, it’s not the powder or I and everyone else would be getting your problems.

GooseGestapo said:

Try a different cleaning regimen.
First use a patch with bore solvent. Let it soak a minute or so.
Then run a bronze bore brush through it for several strokes.
Then a clean patch, and THEN inspect.
If you must, repeat until the clean patch comes out clean.

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100% THIS!
Let it soak/emulsify, then use a bronze brush for a few passes. Should break it up and remove the vast majority of the fouling... and THEN hit it with the patches. Should cut your cleaning time dramatically. Using only patches will take a lot longer. Sometimes you need a scrub brush.

Big-bore-bob said:

I'm leaning towards the powder being the issue.

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The Hodgdon SDS shows many chemicals that may be in the powder. More then some old Alliant powders, like Bullseye powder or BE-86.

Cleaning- A solvent needs time to work. Best to wet the barrel and let sit over night. Then finish the next day. Hoppes #9 Benchrest Copper solvent would be my choice for jacketed bullets.

As said above, let it soak.

Reluctant to post this because it's a wee bit far fetched....

If there's some way you could substitute a fmj with no lead exposed(base).... without changing anything else. Might be a clue.

Or...

Cut a wad out of a milk carton to go over the powder. There's an outside chance you're seeing antimony wash. Like I said,it's a little out there. But,easy enough to test.

PS... generally use lots of fluid,and real bronze wool wrapped in a reg bore brush. Keep the whole shebang dripping wet... Hopes is as good as anything here,I use Ed's red. Sloppy wet. Good luck with your project.

I actually dunk my bore brush right in my bottle of Hoppes, then run it through the barrel a few times, maybe five or six. I let it sit and soak while I clean other parts of the gun, then start running patches. If the fouling is really bad, I'll repeat with the soaked bore brush and after letting it sit I'll do patches again. I usually don't have to run the brush for a second time.

If the barrel isn't real dirty, I may just run a wet patch through and let it soak a bit, then dry patch. Repeat as needed.

Sometimes I'll leave it soak overnight, but that's usually because I get busy doing something else and just end up coming back to it the next day.

chris

Cleaned the forcing cone on my 625 recently. It was really gummed up, but the barrel was fine. I saw no change in shooting characteristics afterwards. I have shot coated SWC exclusively for years. I concluded that the gunk was from the coating but that it was harmless.

Walkalong said:

I quit cleaning auto pistol barrels a long time ago, rarely clean revolver barrels, they just don’t need it.

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In my experience, “clean” is a relative term, not an absolute.