Re-bluing at home?

Sure, I didn't like cold blue results in the long run and liked the idea of being able to hot blue when and what I wanted so built a hot tank used a turkey roast burner and bought the chemical from Hubberd-Hall, Black Magic, and have blued dozens.

LOG

log man -
Can you describe it in detail, the process? Any picures?


I'm interested too.

Haven't taken any pictures as of yet, thought about it, but it is a caustic process and handling my camera while it's running hasn't been done, maybe some time. The process is rather direct. The parts are clean and bare and I suspend them in a basket for ease of handling a complete gun at one time. If I'm say bluing a single part I will hang it from a rod across the top on a wire. Okay in a nut shell the solution is heated to 290° and should be boiling at this point, the parts are then lowered in and the temp is held for 20 minutes and pulled and rinsed, followed by a water displacing oil soak. While it's boiling the temp and the need for it to boil is controlled by adding water, this is done with a pipe running along the back side with hole directed towards the side so the water is heated as it runs down and isn't so volatile as it would be if added directly.

LOG.

CAVEAT I have not done it myself but these guys have:
http://www.geocities.com/kemays/formula.htm
http://www.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html

I do my own hot blue. I use Brownell's Oxynate 7 salts. I have a three tank/burner set-up. Tanks are 6''x6''x40'',one for cleaner,one for clear water rinse and one for bluing solution. Solution is heated to 295 degrees F. I also have a guarter sized tank for small parts(pictured). I use high speed buffers for high polish finish or glass bead for matte finish.

Okay my solution is a clear viscus solution that boils white like water haven't seen that much color in the solution.

LOG

log man, the solution in the photos was nearing the end of it's usefulness and needed cleaning. Fresh solution is much clearer and less foamy. Both produce nice blue though.

So...can you desribe the sort of 'Blue' these solutions will do?



The only Bluing I have done, was via heated short immersion in liquid Potassium Nitrate...which was a lot 'Hotter' temperaure wise, and produced a deep, brilliant 'Gillette Blue-Blade' Blue.

That was about 20 years ago...and I'd really like to try my hand at it again.

Yes,this process is referred to as bluing when it's a gun and black oxide when it's other articles. It is a conversion of the surface and goes .00002" deep, the hardness is the same as the steel that's converted. Polished stays polished and matte stays matte.

http://www.hubbardhall.com/chemical-apps-metal-black-oxide.htm

LOG

Is bluing like anodization?

Please take note that the "home bluing" described uses the same caustic salts as gunsmith bluing. With the proper polishing it provides excellent results. BUT, it is also highly dangerous; one splash can cost you your sight or even possibly your life.

A proper bluing setup requires protective clothing (face and eye protection, rubber apron, boots and gloves) and an emergency type "dump" shower within a few feet of the tanks. Can you do it in the kitchen? Sure, if no one minds floor covering with large holes in it. You also should have a three tank setup and a safe means of disposal of the salts when done. ("Down the drain" is probably illegal.)

Those chemicals are often sold as "simple" and "easy to use", with "no special preparations necessary." Such claims are, at best, misleading and could be dangerous if taken literally.

Hi, Birdmang,

No. Anodizing is an electrolysis process where a coloring material is deposited on metal using an electric current. It is used mainly on aluminum, which can't be blued because caustic bluing dissolves aluminum. Bluing is a controlled rusting, where a surface layer of iron or steel is blackened (the "blue" or "black" color is mainly a matter of the type of polish given the metal before bluing).

Jim

So...these are 'Blacking', even if figuratively called 'Blueing'.


What if someone would actually wish to have "Blue" for their so-called 'Blueing'?


"Blue" like Guns used to be when 'Blueing' was "BLUEING"..?


Any one have any recipies or formula-methods for "Blueing" which is 'Blue'?


If I sent off a Revolver to be 'Blued' and it came back 'Black', I'd be very non-plussed indeed..!

I use a 4 tank set up, Cleaner, filtered water rinse, Hot Blue Salts in filtered water and an added hot filtered water rinse and use Brownell's Oxynate. Depending on how well you polish, you will get a blue to black finish.

The better job you do polising out surface scratches and blemishes, the more BLUE it will be. Small scratches and blemishes oxidize differently and create that black look. Polish, Polish and polish.... do not try to move metal or take it away, just try to get the perfect mirror finish. As far as grits and polish used, these tend to be the biggest secrets of the best bluers. Never mix grits on the same polish wheel, no matter how clean you think you got it. Use faster speed polish wheels you can muster up, rinse and check the polish job often. If you do it by hand sitting watching a movie .... just be patient, it will come about in due time and elbow grease.

I feel the filtered water being used actually gives a deeper blue color as the bluing solutions are not working on the minerals in the water, they are working on your piece.

When I am doing small pins, screws or pieces I have worked on like sears and hammers where there is a mirror and crisp edge, I use bluing paste although I use the cleaner and hot rinse on cold bluing as well. I find the pieces come out great when you set the cold bluing with heat from a hot water bath.

wait a day or two before you add a light film of oil and hit the small pieces with 00000 wool (light touch) before you add the oil to the surface.

I stay away from the shop countertop cold blues such as Birchwood, 444 and such.

If your cold bluing comes out looking like a kid with measles, all dotted up with lil craters of dark and light or even rainbow spots. The part or pieces were not cleaned well or surface prepped well, usually from waxes and base oils in gun cleaners used after firing.

If you use alcohol to degrease a surface, make sure you rinse that surface in hot filtered water after wards. Unless you are using anhydras alcohol. If you are using denatured or rubbing alcohol, there are tons of impurities in those. They do work great to remove the finger print grease and such, but truly need a hot rinse after you use alcohol or you are bluing the impurities in it left on the surface of the piece being blued when you apply the cold or hot blue.

I guess in all....... it all depends on what the job you want to look like. I have seen very well done cold blue pieces, fools even the best of us when it is done right. I have also seen really botched Hot Bluing jobs that would bring tears to your eyes..... especially on delicate pieces like an old Colt Woodsman or a Hi-Standard Olympic. I have seen pieces like these reduced to being best used as a paper weight.

If you are dealing with a pitted surface, remove the pitted area with progressive sanding and wool and polish, but do remove the pits. This will remove the metal around it and at times remove desireable seals, stamps and logos. You can have these logos recut by a decent engraver and some manufacturers even offer a restamp (do not rec this though).

I have preferred the laser etched re-logo methods more than any so far, but it is expensive and as far as I know only 3 companies in the USA provide firearm logo, serial and marks etchings. But for people willing to pay the price, it comes out great and hard to tell the difference in orig stamps and logos.

In any event, you HAVE to remove the pits as long as you do not cause safety issues due to thin areas. The pits will in cold or hot blue, oxidize at different rates than the metal around it and cause horrible looking bluing jobs.

You can decide to stipple, matt, jewel, engrave the pitted areas to create a pre planned patterned look of matt Vs Gloss. Matt finish with the use of a sand or bead blast system is the easiest. Stippling can very tedious and time consuming but does look cool if done right. Jeweling can be done with a good supply of pencils with fresh rubber erasures and a paste grit of some kind and a drill press. Indexing the jeweled look can be a chore, but with a indexed machinist vise and a drill press you can make pieces look good when the sides of a hammer, triggerer, ejection port area is jeweled up.............

In saving a botched up job..... I have found that the external coatings from Steve Lauer called DuraCoat are good........ a book can be written and have been on external coatings so I will not get into that here. Here again, you need good surface prep. They have a decent at home finish kit called "Duracoat EZ Finish Kit" for like $50 or so that does work..... www.lauerweaponry.com. Note: they also make some really cool class II pieces like supressers, full auto .22 rinfire and other projects.

One little trick I use on small pieces, especially internal parts that look corroded or greyed out especially springs, is using a rock polishing or brass polishing tumbler with corn gritted media. Gives an astonishingly pro look when someone cocks thier piece or takes it down and see you have totally cleaned and polished their entire interals for them. Nothing like looking up the feeding gate or ramp plate into an old remington or ithica and see all the parts inside gleeming and polished. You can get a fairly workable tumbler from American Scientific supply as well as many other hobby places like Michaels and other craft and hobby stores. They are usually not big enough to do the large parts or pistol barrels and such.

One caution though... do not over use this as you can dull crisp edges like sears and bearing surfaces. It only takes 3-5 minutes to get a decent look.

I hope this helped a little......

Rem, polish polish polish and then degrease... degrease...clean, rinse.... then blue... then rinse and then yeah you guessed it............ buff polish.... then light oil the surface to inspect the job.


Regards,
Mike

Let me echo (LOUDLY) what Jim said about the dangers of this type of bluing! Yes! I use neoprene gloves,apron and a full face shield. The mist off of the heated solution is enough to "irritate" skin. The temperature must be kept constant for proper bluing ,in the case of Oxynate 7 it is 295 degrees F. The temp is regulated not so much by the burner but by the water/salts ratio(typically 10lbs salts/1 gallon water). If the solution will not reach bluing temp of 295, salts must be added. If the temp gets too high water must be added. CAUTION! Adding water to boiling solution is DANGEROUS! Too much too fast and the solution will erupt violently. Slow and easy is the ticket. I use a stainless steel ladel while wearing elbow length neoprene gloves. I also keep the solution covered when not in use to help keep out impurities.

+3 - I third the Jim and Jimmy sounding boards on safety.

To be honest I do not rec home hot salts bluing. My tank set ups are in a cinder brick structure in back of the shop.

...I also wear Nitril aprons, eye shields, Nitril gloves etc... I also have very good vetilation to a bag system. I wear safety equipment also when doing small cold buing jobs as well. You are working with acids, caustic salts and sodas and various other hazmat materials.

When polishing and grinding, also wear a surgical mask, those metal and abrasive powders can truly wreck havoc on a respitory system.

Regards,
Mike

Another thing to consider is that the steam & vapors given off by the boiling bluing salts will rust everything iron or steel in your house bright red in a matter of hours.

I wouldn't even consider it unless you have a detached out-building with nothing else in it of value!

rc

Obviously, boiling caustic solutions are dangerous, if not respected for what it is, and a burn injury is very possible and this solution will melt hair and skin off in minutes.The shooting of live ammo is also to be concerned about and we who enjoy this hobby must recognize the dangers and take the precautions of doing so.

I do my bluing outside, so there's plenty of fresh air. What comes out of the mix as steam, is just that steam, water vapor, and the reason it must be replenished and why I have it plumbed into the top edge of the tank, so that it is preheated and runs down the side of the tank into the solution. Pouring directly into the solution is dangerous as the water can go below surface and erupt throwing the solution out. I use a ball valve and a metering valve. I leave the water on and set the meter so the balance of steam coming out of solution is replaced at the same time, the stability of the temperature lets you know whether more or less water needs to be added. The solution never becomes depleted as long as it isn't overheated and skimmed of sludge that is a byproduct of the solution and CO2, I keep my solution and tank clean. Loss is due to this reaction, and what you pull out every time you remove a part and rinse it off.



LOG

I can promise you that is more than just steam coming off Oxynate 7 solution! It is a very corrosive mix that will ruin any metal it come in contact with. Nice set-up.

A friend had a rather odd bluing accident, but it just illustrates the danger involved and the need to know what you are doing.

He was bluing a Browning High Power. He had not previously done a BHP but had worked on many GI 1911 pistols. When he came to the magazine, he did what he normally did with GI magazines, polish them up a bit and drop them in the tank without bothering to disassemble them. But the BHP magazine has an aluminum follower, and caustic salts dissolve aluminum. The magazine was sitting in the tank, open end up, when the follower dissolved and its remains and a good glob of salts was expelled from the tank. My friend was wearing goggles, but not a full face shield. He was burned on the forehead and around the upper jaw, but thanks to the goggles kept his eyesight. Three lessons - wear full face protection, don't look in the tank to see how things are going, and don't blue aluminum especially when it has a compressed spring back of it.

Jim

OUCH!

LOG

You might look into rust bluing. More labor intensive and time consuming but excellent results and safer. The way it used to be done. There is one maker (whose name escapes me) that makes a browning solution that is not oil sensitive and will work as a rust bluing solution if the pieces are immersed in boiling water after application.

...found this...


Sounds promising..!


http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/barrel_brown_inst.htm



Been thinking to re-blue my 'Model 10 Project' once I'm all done fussing with it.


I'll be brooding on the old Rust Blue method now.


Thanks for mentioning it..!

I often tinker with old guns that really have no value. Finish is gone, and I want something to help resist rusting.

What I do now is strip the gun, thoroughly degrease with 91% rubbing alcohol, rinse in boiling purified water, then put into an oven at 350 degrees for about twenty minutes. While the part is hot, apply Brownell's Oxpho-BLue solution using a foam brush or a wooden Q-tip for the tight spots. You want it hot enough so that the solution hisses and steams off (use good ventilation). Compared to just cold-blueing the gun, the transformation from unfinished to stark black was almost shocking to watch the first time I did this. Polish with ultrafine grease-free steel wool lightly. Reheat and apply chemical again 2-3 more times until you can't see any more color change. Rinse in boiling water again. Then I apply a liberal slather of motor oil and then lightly sand with ultrafine steel wool again.

What I get is a nice black-brown blueing that looks good enough for a shooter gun, but doesn't look like a neglected gun anymore.

RC, you are 110% correct on the oxynate rusting iron or other ferris metals outside of the tank and is the reason I installed a sand bag filtering system, We did a test once with old gun parts hung at different levels above the bluing tank.....3 days later there as you said, bright red/orange. Sop we built the back room of cinder bricks, with a industrial exhaust and the bag filter system.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier was to make sure you remove all the old bluing first before bluing and polishing. I remove old bluing with a simple bath of Drano drain cleaner, it works better, faster and cleaner than the so called de-bluing agents. I give it a couple baths of that and a hot water rinse a few times then let dry completly from the heat from the water bath, then I do my polishing tricks.... one good thing is, after it, I can toss the drano down the drain w/o making epa choke on a tater tot.

I get rid of my old bluing solutions through a service in Cleveland for Hazmat control. I got a pretty stiff ticket throwing it down the sewer drain on the street even though I showed them the mfg said it was ok right on their label. That is also when I switched to oxynate as the preppopan I was using really was not that good.

Evan: please be careful in steaming off cold blue, it is S-A-L Acid and will do your nasal and throat extream harm......PLUS and seriously... you would be better off finish wise if you dipped the part into a cold blue solution and not paint it on.

Jim: I have seen some hellashish accidents as well..... especially home smiths that just do it part time and forget small steps. Like adding water into acid.... it is the same as adding water into a hot frying pan and can spatter up.... always add the acids to the water, not the water to the acids. The worse accident I had known of during bluing was a home smith had a tank of alcohol.... BUT also smoked and the alcohol was heated, the flash point was low enough that the cigg caught the alcohol on fire, it did not explode, but when the blue flame flashed up the guy jerked back and tripped and turned the tanks over onto himself... the alcohol was still on fire in the water mix and the bluing salts just litterally ate him away. He was alone. I always have a friend over and offer coffee and some baked goods when I do a bluing job. He died 11 days later, all for a dang $100 bluing savings from not having a pro do it.

Regards
Mike