Do you think the average gangbanger practices shooting?

same as the "average" LEO, or "average" CCW person, no, they don't practice well enough or often enough
but the "hardcore" (LEO, CCW, gangbanger) they practice plenty, sure

I'm surprised this quote hasn't been noticed yet, but for those who didn't get to page 2, Mr. James Barron, the author, has learned the party line well:

The police said they found business cards for several Virginia gun dealers in Mr. Martinez’s pocket. One was from Gary A. Lewis, who runs Gary’s Guns & Transfers in Manakin-Sabot, a pair of villages northwest of Richmond.

Mr. Lewis said he could not explain how Mr. Martinez came to be carrying his card

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Amazing coincidence that the perp would be carrying business cards for a Virginia gun dealer, isn't it?

On a related note a lot of SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios assume the gangs would rule the streets. I bet folks that fit the profile of the highroad would take it from them fairly easily.

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Aside from a total lack of shooting skils, they probalby don't have many guns larger than a pistol(an the rest are probably sawn-off shotguns and/or Ak clone than might go full-auto if they don't explode)

Wow, that article was hilarious on many levels.

The quotes from the Irish and Australian tourists were the best.

There is an FBI or maybe ATF study floating around somewhere that was taken from "cop killers" in jail. They did the the study to see if they could find a common reason that these criminals were able to 'win' a gun fight with trained officers.

One of the things learned was the LEO's they question only spent enough time at the range to keep the qualified, time required. While the murderers reported shooting frequently, I don't remember just how frequently. But the people doing the study (either FBI or ATF) came to the conclusion that the criminals got more "trigger time" than the average LEO.

I will add they didn't seem to think it made any difference, they concluded the biggest reason the criminals won these particular gun fights was they lack of give a crap (my words) While the LEO's had to survey the situation, identify a suspect, look for a threat, observe bystanders, ect, ect. All the criminals had to do was see a LEO and fire. Then all they had to do was wound him, once wounded they could easily "finish him off." Honestly it was somewhat disturbing to read.


I found the study from a link posted by someone here on THR but I can't find it, maybe someone will have it.

Other factors

There are other issues to consider here as well.

The criminal knows in advance what his plans are. He knows how far he is willing to go in order to achieve his ultimate goal. He does not have any morals and is generally not going to hindered by limits. He generally with have both the element of suprize and pre planning on his side.

The victim, be it LEO or civilian, will encounter the unexpected and refrain from taking the aggression to an upper level simply by not knowing what to expect.

The criminal will likely be more familiar with the surroundings than the victim.

As many here will recall, LE had a large shootout in Miami many years ago that resulted in the death of several officers and two perps. Prior to the shootout, one of the victims of the perps was fatally shot when he encountered the perps out in the boonies practicing with their weapons. During the final shootout with LE, many of the officers were reduced to using firearms they were unfamilar with.

Perps, gangbangers and those intent on doing wrong will not pay attention to laws, rules or ethics. They play to win. LE and honest civilians try to stay within the law to avoid legal troubles later.

As to the "hold the gun sideways" thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pJ9doDW-Bo
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Interesting link,but not what I was referring to. When he did the full sideways 'Gangsta' cant,that is what I was talking about,and YES they do that and no they generally aren't worth a crap as a marksman. As said by someone else, the criminals in the FBI study are not the average gangbanger.

My opinion... shooting to murder or defend yourself when you do not have the "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it...." mentality does not require a ton of skill. Think about it... we have all run through the Home Invasion, street defense scenarios over, and over and over again.

When we face these situations we have fear (Fear for our lives, fear for killing others, fear for our loved ones, fear of the laws, etc....) and this fear does not exist with the gang related shooters. Take away all that fear, and add in the element of surprise a drive by, robbing or other gang related shooting and all of a sudden you do not need to spend hours and hours at the range to hit your target.

anyone who holds a pistol sideways should be shot with their own gun. is that birdman thing a joke?they think its a modern way to hold a gun ? its an *******s way of holding a gun

Yes goldie... it is a joke...read all of the fine print... and to another previous post... there is a huge difference between a slight cant (ie...natural point of aim one handed) and a full sideways "gangsta" hold...

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

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While I believe all of us can learn a great deal from this study, we have to remember it is very skewed. The FBI only interviewed the "winners" from the criminal side. The criminals interviewed had all successfully defeated their LEO opponent. Basically they interviewed the best qualified criminal gunmen.

That being said, we all need to practice more. As Mr. Jordan said, "There is no second place winner."

Reading through all of this made me laugh. I've had this kind of conversation with lots of people. As someone mentioned earlier, I too have watched a few episodes of the "gangland" series on the history channel. The comments made by the police officers on the show are funny. You often hear them say that they're reluctant to work in the gang unit or patrol gang "territory". Why are they letting the fear get to them? Being a part of the police force means you joined to serve and protect society and keep people safe. This fear of gangs and their violence is what is making it more widespread. If we as law abiding people are continually afraid of gangs/bad guys, they're going to run all over us by playing on that fear. It's just another kind of terrorism and it only works as long as we're paralyzed by our fears.

Do I think that the hoods practice their shooting? No. Even if they did "practice", trigger time does not make you a good shooter. In order for "practice makes perfect" to make any sense, that practice has to be practice of perfection. It means using the right techniques like trigger pull, grip, stance, etc. In my opinion, the most important part of shooting accurately is the trigger pull. Snatching the trigger will make your perfectly aligned sight picture fly wide. Practice your trigger pull and everything else will fall into place. It's the one constant you can always have in any situation you might find yourself shooting. There are plenty of other important things like malfunction drills, but you have to start at the basics to do the rest. Get your practice in and be confident. It's like studying for an exam. If you prepared, you're going to be much less nervous. Gain confidence in your abilities and don't be afraid.

Most dont but theres some out there who are a good shot.

No. The average gangbanger does not practice much. I go to the range on a weekly and sometimes twice a week basis. The times when I have seen the stereotypical gangbanger shooting, it is generally with a small group, including their girlfriends; trying to impress their GF?

They're usually rapid firing, shooting sidways, one handed, gangsta stance, and at 15'. Even at 15' they can't hit the side of a barn. It is really pathetic. They're also usually shooting jam-o-matics like Hi-Points, Jimenez, and other POS's. Their favorite non-jam-o-matic are Glocks. Spray and pray, eh?

I'm glad they can't hit doo-doo but on the other hand, it makes you wonder how many innoccent lives could have been saved if they would learn a few basics of marksmanship.

Maybe they had it right in the days of backwoods justice?

CravenMoorhead
<SNIP>The comments made by the police officers on the show are funny. You often hear them say that they're reluctant to work in the gang unit or patrol gang "territory". Why are they letting the fear get to them? Being a part of the police force means you joined to serve and protect society and keep people safe. This fear of gangs and their violence is what is making it more widespread. If we as law abiding people are continually afraid of gangs/bad guys, they're going to run all over us by playing on that fear. It's just another kind of terrorism and it only works as long as we're paralyzed by our fears.<SNIP>

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I read an article by Massad Ayoob about a study the FBI was doing on officer involved shootings, and of the 35 or so cases, the perpetrators in 17 of them practiced with their arms regularly, plinking in the woods and what not.

I think that as people who carry guns for self defense, we do ourselves a disservice when we assume that the threat we face is incompetent and incapable of engaging anyone effectively in a gunfight.

Even though a gang member may not practice at a formal range, there is a Darwinian selection process that is weeding out the poor shooters from the herd. Poor shots get dead, and that is a powerful motivator.

Toss in the fact that the more ruthless of them have no problem in shooting, and thus will not hesitate (while the honest citizen, no matter how ell prepared will hesitate at least for a fraction of a second) and we see that the average gangbanger has a large tactical advantage over us. To assume in a smug and pompous manner that we are going to out shoot them is a recipe for disaster.

Do they practice? Not likely, but they CAN use the sights w/ this nifty add-on.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-gag.html

The recent Ohio bar shooting seems pretty typical of gangbangers and firearms.....unfamiliar with firearms at all, let alone the one they have. This leads to spray/pray tactics.

I doubt many of them ever hit the range....the ex-military ones are the ones I'd be worried about.

the ex-military ones are the ones I'd be worried about.

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and only some of those....

I don't think the average **gangbanger*** practices as we all consider practice - but Pilots use a flight simulator to train.....so.....
I do know that both of my kids developed EXCELLENT eye-to-hand coordination with a playstation/whatever was around in the early 90's. The youngest was a natural 500yard bench shooter @ 10. pure calm.
I do suspect gangbangers play 1st person shooter games, I believe they would "play" with their firearms. Getting familiar.
Most of the handguns I watched in use on "GANGLAND" were revolvers; just for show(?) or what was available when those clips were filmed. I don't know.

No --- I do not think that most Gangbangers get much trigger time here in ILLinois --- we have a FOID/gun card from the IL. State Police , that you must show when you go shoot at any range here in IL.

Some/most "bangers" will have shot a few rounds in the back alley or some such place.

BUT at 3-5 feet , you don't really have to be a great shot to get some hits.


EDIT --- as far as the FBI report ------- what self-respecting Banger would say " no , I never have fired my gat before I did the crime" ???? They ALL WILL LIE to make them look bigger , badder , and meaner to their homies that may see the vid.

I'm a very avid PC gamer, with mouse control to the point where I can land my mouse pointer on a single pixel at rediculous speeds, and even I had issues re-accustoming myself to firearms after all these years.

All the game will do is help with reaction time and hand-eye coordination. Firearm use, especially handguns requires more than that....breath control and muscle memory being two of the more important ones.

Regardless of whether they stand flat footed at the range every other week like most of us do in our "training," many criminals have a combat mindset. Street smarts, a will to win and a .25 beats the weekend warrior whose Wilson is buried under three layers of tacticool clothing.

Several years ago a scumbag in CT murdered a police officer. Said scumbag brushed against the officer to determine whether the officer was wearing a vest, then shot him in the head. An up close, underhanded attack is more likely than trying to out-shoot someone at 40 paces.