My friend wants to get an AK type rifle and has narrowed it down to these 2. The SLR-107 has a folding stock which may be useful for storage/transportation puroses, but other than that how do they compare to each other in terms of quality, weight, accuracy, availability of spare parts, etc.?
SGL21 vs. SLR-107
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wally
Member
My experience is that only the under-folders help with storage, but they are the worst as actual stocks. Most of the side-folders are good stocks when extended, but make the gun so wide it'll take two slots in the safe -- most of which aren't laid out for pistol grip guns.
If you are getting in and out of vehicles while carrying the rifle the folders make sense, but otherwise, get it only if you want another "evil" feature.
Since most everything on the AK is riveted, and the design minimizes parts count, there are not a lot of parts you can replace, most furniture requires minor fitting, the trigger parts are all basically the same, and the bolt/carrier tend to have minor differences based on country of origin.
Is it even possible to build an autoloader with fewer springs than an AK? (recoil spring, extractor spring, hammer spring, disconnecter spring)
--wally.
If you are getting in and out of vehicles while carrying the rifle the folders make sense, but otherwise, get it only if you want another "evil" feature.
Since most everything on the AK is riveted, and the design minimizes parts count, there are not a lot of parts you can replace, most furniture requires minor fitting, the trigger parts are all basically the same, and the bolt/carrier tend to have minor differences based on country of origin.
Is it even possible to build an autoloader with fewer springs than an AK? (recoil spring, extractor spring, hammer spring, disconnecter spring)
--wally.
Hizzie
Member
The SGL21 is a converted Saiga. It shares many parts with the AKM family of rifles but the bolt and bolt carrier are different and not interchangeable. Saiga specific parts are not as readily available.
The SLR-107 is a SA only AKM. It shares basically every part (keep the variety of tolerances among various producing nations in mind) with the rest of the AK family. You can pick up a spare bolt for the SLR fairly easily. The "AK-100 Series" folding stocks are quite simply the best there is for the AK. They fold when needed but when open they look, feel and handle like a fixed stock. Truly the best of both worlds.
In terms of quality they are very close with the SLR coming in ahead. Weights will be within ounces of each other. They will both be accurate, within the limits of the AK design and quality of ammo. People use crap steel cased surplus ammo and wonder why the AK groups 4-6 MOA. Spare parts is addressed above.
The SLR-107 is a SA only AKM. It shares basically every part (keep the variety of tolerances among various producing nations in mind) with the rest of the AK family. You can pick up a spare bolt for the SLR fairly easily. The "AK-100 Series" folding stocks are quite simply the best there is for the AK. They fold when needed but when open they look, feel and handle like a fixed stock. Truly the best of both worlds.
In terms of quality they are very close with the SLR coming in ahead. Weights will be within ounces of each other. They will both be accurate, within the limits of the AK design and quality of ammo. People use crap steel cased surplus ammo and wonder why the AK groups 4-6 MOA. Spare parts is addressed above.
Hizzie: I wonder where you got your info on the Saiga line, as its waay off the mark.
The SGL21 is as close to a Russian Mil-spec AK as you can get in the states. First and foremost they are NOT "converted saigas." I would know, since I have an SGL-21 leaned up against the wall not 5 feet away from me.
They are in very much a semi-auto versions of the AK-103 series of rifles. They arrive in the states already in the proper AK-103 configuration. No conversions are done. The bolt, bolt carrier, and nearly every internal part is interchangeable with any other AK out there. For that matter, almost any part out of a Saiga sporting rifle can be swapped out with a regular AK, minus a FA FCG, of course.
They are sold under the Saiga umbrella, since that seems to have become IzMash's catch-all sporting line.
Between the two, I think both the SGL21 and SLR-107 are so similar that its a non-issue. Get the one that looks better to you. As wally said, there are things to be said for the folding stock for transport, but it does have its downs to storage. You can always replace the OEM stock with a M4-style or a folding M4-Style stock.
Mine is in the stock configuration, but I am heavily considering converting it with a VLTOR stock addaptor to an M4-style sliding stock. Accuracy has been good ~2MOA with quality ammo and a cool barrel. Only issue I have with it is weight, with it topping out at 10-11lbs with a 30 round magazine and optics.
The SGL21 is as close to a Russian Mil-spec AK as you can get in the states. First and foremost they are NOT "converted saigas." I would know, since I have an SGL-21 leaned up against the wall not 5 feet away from me.
They are in very much a semi-auto versions of the AK-103 series of rifles. They arrive in the states already in the proper AK-103 configuration. No conversions are done. The bolt, bolt carrier, and nearly every internal part is interchangeable with any other AK out there. For that matter, almost any part out of a Saiga sporting rifle can be swapped out with a regular AK, minus a FA FCG, of course.
They are sold under the Saiga umbrella, since that seems to have become IzMash's catch-all sporting line.
Between the two, I think both the SGL21 and SLR-107 are so similar that its a non-issue. Get the one that looks better to you. As wally said, there are things to be said for the folding stock for transport, but it does have its downs to storage. You can always replace the OEM stock with a M4-style or a folding M4-Style stock.
Mine is in the stock configuration, but I am heavily considering converting it with a VLTOR stock addaptor to an M4-style sliding stock. Accuracy has been good ~2MOA with quality ammo and a cool barrel. Only issue I have with it is weight, with it topping out at 10-11lbs with a 30 round magazine and optics.
Having both, it'll all come down to whether you want a sidefolder or solid stock, or if you want Russian vs. Bulgarian.
I find myself rarely using the sidefolder on any of my sidefolders. Both the 21 and the 107 are confortable to shoot, the same really. I find my SGL a little more accurate but that could be because of a tight fitting brake on the SGL; the 107 has a little play to it and I know my 106's groups tightened up once carbon buildup took the play out of it's brake.
Parts are a non-issue, bolt's aren't hot swapable in AKs anyway. The 107 will use AKM guts and the SGL will use `74 guts. Example of a common spare part(s): the extractor & spring on the 107 is standard AKM and the firing pin is a spring loaded Bulgarian - Kvar has the parts. The 20/21 uses a `74 extractor & spring and firing pin.* The fire control groups and spring are the same for both.
*Comparing my SGL-20 to my SGL-31, Bulgarian AK-74 and Sar-2.
I find myself rarely using the sidefolder on any of my sidefolders. Both the 21 and the 107 are confortable to shoot, the same really. I find my SGL a little more accurate but that could be because of a tight fitting brake on the SGL; the 107 has a little play to it and I know my 106's groups tightened up once carbon buildup took the play out of it's brake.
Parts are a non-issue, bolt's aren't hot swapable in AKs anyway. The 107 will use AKM guts and the SGL will use `74 guts. Example of a common spare part(s): the extractor & spring on the 107 is standard AKM and the firing pin is a spring loaded Bulgarian - Kvar has the parts. The 20/21 uses a `74 extractor & spring and firing pin.* The fire control groups and spring are the same for both.
*Comparing my SGL-20 to my SGL-31, Bulgarian AK-74 and Sar-2.
M2
Member
-v-
Hate to bust your bubble, but the SGL20/21 (basically the same rifle, the 2 has an extra accessory lug) do enter this country as sporters. They are converted back into 922r-compliant AKs at Arsenal...from the brochure that comes with your rifle:
Or you can read the review from SPECIAL WEAPONS/OCTOBER 2009:
Arsenal does an excellent job and the final product is the closest thing to a Russian AK-103 you will find in this country; but it still does arrive on our shores as a sporterized Saiga...
Cheers! M2
Hate to bust your bubble, but the SGL20/21 (basically the same rifle, the 2 has an extra accessory lug) do enter this country as sporters. They are converted back into 922r-compliant AKs at Arsenal...from the brochure that comes with your rifle:
Or you can read the review from SPECIAL WEAPONS/OCTOBER 2009:
Arsenal does an excellent job and the final product is the closest thing to a Russian AK-103 you will find in this country; but it still does arrive on our shores as a sporterized Saiga...
Cheers! M2
briansmithwins
Member
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My SLR107FR has been excellent. All the small details are just right. That said, my shooting buddy has the SGL, and it's very nice too. You won't go wrong with either one.
Refinished with Duracoat after a failed camo attempt.
BSW
Refinished with Duracoat after a failed camo attempt.
BSW
AK 103 style - AKM style - AK 103 style (Saiga/SGL)
The saiga/Vepr 100 series bolt uses a longer head, thinner stem, and a distinct claw extractor. The Arsenal SLR I think from what I seen uses a hybrid proprietary bolt like the one below. Its not a standard 103 style nor is it a fat stem AKM type. The new style russian claw extractor is more reliable than the old AKM style. The new style bolt and carrier have an improved weight ratio relation for better feeding and extraction. The new style 90 degree gas block versus the old 45 degree gas block is an accuracy enhancement. The new Russian Saiga/SGL rifles are fairly modern in their design components. The 7.62x39 bolt body is about the only part not readily available in surplus parts for this caliber, but the 5.45 bolt seems to interchange with the AK74 surplus bolts. I have searched for broken Russian AK bolt reports and never found one. I would be surprised to find even one report.
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ummm I hate to tell you that you are rather mistaken.
If that were true it would be a rather notable violation of the law. Oh and every time you stuck a 30 round mag in it you would be "assembling" (as per ATF definitions) a non 922r compliant rifle and breaking federal law as well. If they could import them in that configuration then the sporter saiga line wouldn't even exist. THe sporters are around only so they can get them in country.
M2 that's surprising. My main basis for that was that the SGL21 does not have the bolt-hold-open lever, or the cut for that lever on it. As I understand, all the sporter Saiga rifles have that cut for the bolt-hold-open mechanism (holds the bolt back, must be manually engaged). The other is the lack of the two extra rivet holes in the rear of the receiver that must be covered up, that seem to be ubiquitous on most all Saiga conversions that I have seen. The point raised of it would not be 992(r) Kosher, is a valid point too.
This issue has been unresolved on other boards. My SGL has no weld up holes where the regular Saiga rear pins are and the trigger guard had non-russian factory paint. These are suppose to be Saiga-"Legion Custom Shop" products. My best guess is that they are imported without the parts that would be replaced anyway for compliance:trigger group, pistol grip, stock, and handguard. The bayonet lug would be the only thing that might prevent such but there is not enough info to easily determine how exactly they manage to slip these in.
M2
Member
-v-
Yeah, but the good news is that Arsenal does such an excellent job with the conversion that it's easy to put it out of one's mind that they hit these shores looking something like one of these!
I had a few folks try to convince me to just buy a sporter and do the conversion myself, but I didn't want to spend the time and effort to do so and honestly I don't think the end result is the same. The SGL20/21s are Legion built which puts them above the average rifle that comes out of the Izhmash factory.
So I wouldn't let this info bother you, in the end we are still getting the closest thing to an AK-103 that can be found in this country; and one of the sweetest AKs on the market!
Cheers! M2
Yeah, but the good news is that Arsenal does such an excellent job with the conversion that it's easy to put it out of one's mind that they hit these shores looking something like one of these!
I had a few folks try to convince me to just buy a sporter and do the conversion myself, but I didn't want to spend the time and effort to do so and honestly I don't think the end result is the same. The SGL20/21s are Legion built which puts them above the average rifle that comes out of the Izhmash factory.
So I wouldn't let this info bother you, in the end we are still getting the closest thing to an AK-103 that can be found in this country; and one of the sweetest AKs on the market!
Cheers! M2
Oh yeah there is totally a night and day difference between the Arsenal and the following converted saigas
This is a small sampling. I could post many more but I think the above suffices to the my point.
Plus those raving about the SLG seem to be operating on the presumption that the AK103 look alike format of the rifle is necessarily better than another set up. However, that certainly isn't the case for everyone. Nothing in the OP suggests that the OP believes that to be the case. If you are building it for function doing it yourself makes even more sense because you can set it up in a way that best serves you.
In sum those saying that only the mighty Arsenal can make such a rifle are ill informed and project their own inabilities and insecurities in doing a little project onto everyone else.
For what it is worth I would rather have a rifle like those pictured below than an Arsenal and it would cost less as well (sans optics).
I used to think they were imported like that for Arsenal, but with dimples. Welded up holes should have a different steel grain pattern.
I stripped all the Russian Izmash paint off my receiver and can't see a slight hint of different grain pattern. If they can get those imported without
enough parts (not complete/not unimportable), then this would explain how. Yeah, obviously the SGL 10 would have been imported like sporters but if the
SGL 20/21/31 actually arrive as sporters then the conversion is absolutely flawless which is amazing.
philpost
Member
I'd like to ask Girodin a question: why is it that someone asks an opinion between an Arsenal AK and X AK or between 2 Arsenal AK's, your answer is always "convert a Saiga yourself"? Even when someone honestly says they don't want to spend the time or effort to do it, you slam them saying "they're projecting their own insecurities and inabilities"? What do you think you're projecting?
For the record, those converted Saiga's are visually as nice as any Arsenal. I have no doubt they function as well as they look.
In addition, there are are other manufacturers that probably do as good a job (or possibly even better) as Arsenal, including AK-USA here in Ft. Myers, Ohio Ordinance, and Krebs. I have no stock in Arsenal, only a rifle that looks and works fine.
But instead of coming down on anyone considering an Arsenal, how about doing something constructive, like helping KCMARINE who is in the middle of a conversion, seems to be at a delicate point, and has some technical questions so he doesn't screw up the job?
Let's play nice, huh?
For the record, those converted Saiga's are visually as nice as any Arsenal. I have no doubt they function as well as they look.
In addition, there are are other manufacturers that probably do as good a job (or possibly even better) as Arsenal, including AK-USA here in Ft. Myers, Ohio Ordinance, and Krebs. I have no stock in Arsenal, only a rifle that looks and works fine.
But instead of coming down on anyone considering an Arsenal, how about doing something constructive, like helping KCMARINE who is in the middle of a conversion, seems to be at a delicate point, and has some technical questions so he doesn't screw up the job?
Let's play nice, huh?
Did the OP ever state he didn't want to spend the time and effort?
It was asserted, with nothing to back it up, in this thread that a home conversion will not be as nice as an Arsenal. I merely produced evidence to the contrary as opposed to a baseless blanket statement. I'm not sure what is not playing nice about that.
By always do you mean the two recent threads that involved discussions of the SLG or are you truly saying always? If it is the first, it is because based on what the OPs in those two threads stated their requirements and desires were a self converted saiga (to what ever format the OP likes) represents a much better value IMHO and certainly would be the functional equivalent for their intended uses to the more expensive arsenal.
I've never "come down on" anyone considering an Arsenal. I have given what is another viable less expensive option. I have asked those saying an arsenal is on a different level than a converted saiga or that a saiga cannot be made to be the equivalent to back up their assertions which none of them have done BTW. I have not however come down on anyone. I have been much more constructive than those spouting baseless nonsense.
If I catch a moment I'll go explain the incredibly delicate and technical process of drilling and tapping a hole.
M2
Member
Well, for one someone who converts a sporterized Saiga is not getting a rifle that was originally built by the Legion custom shop; but I am sure they will debate that difference away as well!
Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass; I don't have the time to be messing around with trying to convert one over and since I've got the money to afford buying a SGL20 outright, I went that route. Once you factor in the parts and time it takes to build one from a sporter, you are close to the $645 that I paid for mine last month anyway.
If someone's jealous about that, then that's their problem!
Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass; I don't have the time to be messing around with trying to convert one over and since I've got the money to afford buying a SGL20 outright, I went that route. Once you factor in the parts and time it takes to build one from a sporter, you are close to the $645 that I paid for mine last month anyway.
If someone's jealous about that, then that's their problem!
philpost
Member
If anyone would like to see a constructive answer on conversions, given by a helpful member, see this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=538737 Based on the in-depth answer, I guess it is a somewhat delicate and technical process.
M2 - you took the words out of my mouth. I'm not sure if Legion makes the sporterized Saiga's or not, only that I've been happy with my SGL-20, and I paid about the same price as you.
M2 - you took the words out of my mouth. I'm not sure if Legion makes the sporterized Saiga's or not, only that I've been happy with my SGL-20, and I paid about the same price as you.
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In what ways does the rifle perform better? No seriously educate me.
You can afford a six hundred dollar rifle?! OMG you must be like Bill Gates or something! That rifle costs about what the mount and the aimpoint on my poor man's converted gun cost. It is half the price of my Noveske. Clearly I am jealous as all get out. Maybe if I win the lottery I can one day afford a sub $700 rifle. Until then I guess I'll just have to dream. If you are going to try to assert superiority through your things you probably need to get nicer stuff. Growing up would likely serve you better though.
Again your contention is based on the idea that everyone wants an AK103 clone or will build to look like one. Some people really care for that look. Some people may find that a different configuration suits them better. You can easily spend much more or much less depending exactly what you want to do. None of my AKs are AK103 clones. As they sit some are cheaper than the SLG some not so much. If one determines that having that look is of particular value to them then whether the SLG is the best choice is a different conversation. In this thread the OP never listed that as being a consideration or part of his criteria.
You are mistaken or have very liberal definitions of technical and delicate. I think it is telling that the anti conversion crowd and those that think Arsenal is doing something real special think that drilling and tapping a hole is a chore.
If one doesn't want to or is not mechanically inclined enough and wants to buy an Arsenal more power to them. The OP is has not indicated that is the case. There is nothing wrong with the Arsenal but it is not the best value given the OPs requirements. Change the stated requirements and it might well be.
kcmarine
Member
Get a Saiga. Might have more snob appeal to some. Idk. It just feels right that an AK be from Russia. Though Bulgarian rifles are nothing to sneeze at, either.
As far as parts availability goes, it's really just customization parts you'll have to worry about... i.e., stocks, muzzle devices, etc. The internals of the AK are not something you'll have to worry about, short of something catastrophic happening. The bolt on the AK you choose (either Saiga or Bulgy) will most likely outlast you. AKs are basically indestructable regardless of how much maintenance you give them and civilian-owned ones that are taken care of will probably last several generations longer than their original owners. If "spare parts" availability is weighing in on your decision, don't let it do so. Short of insanely bad ammo, you cannot do anything to an AK in the course of range work to make it not work.
As far as parts availability goes, it's really just customization parts you'll have to worry about... i.e., stocks, muzzle devices, etc. The internals of the AK are not something you'll have to worry about, short of something catastrophic happening. The bolt on the AK you choose (either Saiga or Bulgy) will most likely outlast you. AKs are basically indestructable regardless of how much maintenance you give them and civilian-owned ones that are taken care of will probably last several generations longer than their original owners. If "spare parts" availability is weighing in on your decision, don't let it do so. Short of insanely bad ammo, you cannot do anything to an AK in the course of range work to make it not work.
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philpost
Member
Actually, the OP's requirements are to help his friend in choosing between 2 Arsenal models, AFTER he had narrowed the field down to those 2. Were his research methods exaustive and thorough? I don't know. All I know is we were asked to help his friend make a choice. I happen to own a similar model to one of the 2. Is it the greatest AK ever that puts all others to shame? I doubt it, but it's a nice rifle nonetheless, that I've never had buyers remorse over. Am I some technical incompetant who is incapable of doing a conversion? Probably not - I've had experience in metal drilling and stamping, welding, and assembly. However, I don't have a dedicated work area in my present living arrangement, nor do I have the tools and machinery to do what I consider a top-notch job. So I choose not to. If that's a black mark against me, so be it.
Were you emotionally wounded by someone who owned an Arsenal once?
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