What's the deal with the PDW fad?

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Pigoutultra

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New submachineguns like the MP7 and its older rival the P90 are being touted as the next generation of firepower. What I don't understand is why they are so "good" when the cartridges that they fire have good penetration but are severely lacking in terminal effectiveness. These were designed to defeat body armor, but little attention was made to it's wounding characteristics. It seems very clear that if you are going up against unarmored foes, then you would want something that will make a bigger hole than .22 or .18 caliber.
 
Well, it's human nature to want simple answers to hugely complex problems.

What could be simpler than something as small as a hand gun that is also as large as a (small) rifle; which is both handy in size and compact in carry; is also "natural" to point, and thus gets more rounds on target per expended, yet also has a high magazine capacity. Oh, and it ought be both simple and complex. And ergonomic while also being simple to manufacture. And extremely well-made while also being inexpensive.

If you can toss in technologically-advanced using old-fashioned methods, that'd be nice, too.

That, and "different" can equal "cool/must have" too.
 
you got me on that one. im still a fan of the 45 acp 7.62x51 and the 12 gauge. i think it might have something to do with the geneva convention and the whole better to wound than to kill. it could also be accuracy over stopping power.
 
I guess it's for when a handgun is too small but a rifle is too big or cumbersome...or they just want the latest and greatest gear.
it could also be accuracy over stopping power.
I saw a review of that MP7 on futureweapons and the host nailed a helmet at 25yds or so. Sure enough, it penetrated both sides (with an itty bitty hole). I thought "that's great if your target is a statue."
 
The .223 bullet makes adequate wounds for combat, though it does this by fragmenting or yawing and since it is a much longer bullet and has more mass it can create more devastating wounds. The 5.7 bullet on the other hand has very low mass(less than half the .223) and is very short, thus eliminating it's ability to reliably wound with yawing and fragmentation is very unlikely with a bullet that short and stable.

I would have liked to see a new and improved version of the .30 carbine in a smg, perhaps improved powder for increased velocity in shorter barrels and spitzer bullets to enhance longer range effectiveness and penetration. Any thoughts?
 
PDWs fill very specific niches. If you're not a person who needs a compact weapon that is easily controllable and will penetrate body armor, then maybe they're not for you.
 
Rear echelon troops don't need a battle rifle, but they may need a firearm to defend themselves. Militaries have long looked for a more compact weapon to issue to these troops--handguns, carbines, submachine guns.

Handguns, while handy, are more difficult to use effectively as compared to shoulder-fired weapons. Couple that with increasing use of body armor and a desire to decrease recoil to enable development of smaller weapons, and the current crop of PDWs is a logical step.
 
the MP7 and its older rival the P90 are being touted as the next generation of firepower

No they are not.
They fill the intended niche. That is a very compact firearm for individuals not on the front lines. Support personnel, logistics, etc


The round can penetrate some armor like most soldiers will be wearing, and has very little recoil on full auto meaning even the unskilled can spray the target.


The individual rounds are less effective than desired, but they are accurately fired at 900 rounds a minute from something like the P90. Or 15 per second.
While having less recoil and requiring less recoil management or trigger discipline than traditional submachineguns. The 5.7 has 2/3 the recoil of the 9mm, making it even easier to fire than the already easy Mp5.
With 50 rounds of capacity it also can deliver such full auto fire for a few seconds.


The concept is deserving. It simply sucks for civilians limited to semi-auto because per round effectiveness is not what the gun or the round was designed for.
The gun was designed to be effective spraying large quantities of rounds with almost no recoil and still defeating enemy armor and creating mediocre wounding per round.
It gives up per round effectiveness, bumps up the rate of fire, and adds light armor penetration over a traditional submachinegun. The increased rate of fire and adequate penetration while remaining extremely controllable for even the minimally trained compensates for reduced per round effectiveness.

As soon as you take out the extremely controllable high rate of fire the platform takes a major nosedive in overall effectiveness.
A lot is sacrificed to achieve that, so once that is removed from the equation you are left with few pros and all of the cons.
(Add to that not even selling the rounds as designed for the application to civilians, which would still suck in semi-auto, and you lose the only remaining attribute the round and firearm was designed around.)
It becomes complete junk, and those limited to semi-auto platforms benefit from greater per round effectiveness, because the amount of reduced recoil achieved is only seriously significant or important on full auto.



So people limited to semi-auto should be calling it crap, because in semi-auto it is.
At 15 rounds per second easily aimed with no recoil from 50 round magazines it is decent.

It allows someone to spray a target with adequate penetration almost as effortlessly as one would operate a water hose for over 3 seconds of fire.



The reason the military is not enthusiastic about it is that such weapons arm people that are generally not engaging the enemy in decisive ways with such weapons.
Such a weapon has far too short of an effective range to be considered for front line troops that actually will have to engage enemy at a wide range of distances.
Investment and extra costs to purchase, maintain, and provide ammo for yet another platform that has little effect on the outcome of a conflict does not appeal to them.
It is like throwing money at a feel good measure for people that shouldn't have to do any shooting.
They can just give such people other weapons that don't require their own special ammunition, weapons which are already in circulation and held in armories.
 
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As soon as you take out the extremely controllable high rate of fire the platform takes a major nosedive in overall effectiveness.
A lot is sacrificed to achieve that, so once that is removed from the equation you are left with few pros and all of the cons.
(Add to that not even selling the rounds as designed for the application to civilians, which would still suck in semi-auto, and you lose the only remaining attribute the round and firearm was designed around.)
It becomes complete junk, and those limited to semi-auto platforms benefit from greater per round effectiveness, because the amount of reduced recoil achieved is only seriously significant or important on full auto.
Agreed. Plus for a PDW, not only do you get the semi-auto version but you've also got a ungainly 16" barrel hanging out there and you've got to buy a $200 stamp to return it to the intended length.
And as mentioned, even if you could still get the AP ammo, you may be able to poke little holes in armor but if you are facing folks without armor (highly likely for civilians, probably still very likely for LE/Mil) you'd get much better performance out of a 115-230gr handgun bullet.
It seems like the LE crowd in SWAT type applications gave up their MP5s for shorty AR/M16 variants, and the Secret Service gave up their Uzis and Macs for P90s, in the very unlikely event they'll be up against foes wearing body armor...and they can still get full autos and AP ammo.
 
The 5.7 bullet on the other hand has very low mass(less than half the .223) and is very short, thus eliminating it's ability to reliably wound with yawing and fragmentation is very unlikely with a bullet that short and stable.

I don't see how this is an issue since they use the same bullets. Ok, maybe not really long/heavy match rounds, but definitely up to 55gr.
 
I don't see how this is an issue since they use the same bullets. Ok, maybe not really long/heavy match rounds, but definitely up to 55gr

Performance is dependent on much more than the weight of the bullet. The design and shape of the bullet play significant roles, as does the velocity at which the bullet is fired. All that is basically irrelevant (in this case) though, because what you are claiming is simply incorrect. The bullets are of different caliber, different shape, are traveling at different velocities, and the 5.7, when using facory loaded ammo, shoots a much lighter bullet than the 5.56. The 5.7 typically uses a bullet of about 30 grains, at least for military purposes (a 40 gr. vmax round is available to civilians). Thats about 1/2 the weight of the 62 gr 5.56 ammo used by the military. The bullets are NOT the same, and do not have the same characteristics, nor were they designed for the same purposes. to expect two rounds designed for different purposes to perform similiarly seems odd to me....
 
They are "defense" weapons. Not "assault" or "battle" rifles.

It is very well demonstrated in youtube vids.

Vehicle column is attacked. Guards open up on attackers with Mp7s - instantly...
then make their way out.
 
They are "defense" weapons. Not "assault" or "battle" rifles.
And that's one of the problems with them. Instead of 'defense', SpecOps and SWAT decide PDW's are on their 'must have' lists and the rifle ends up being used for a purpose it wasn't designed.

Like the AR15/M16 when it was first fielded by the USAF as a security weapon instead of an MBR.
 
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@smince

well, in the hands of someone highly trained, and in close quarters ... s spray of smaller bullets or COM/head will do the job, too ( i assume)

i wouldn´t feel unarmed with one :)

It´s the new AK47*

(*built by germans**)

(**for Hobbits)
 
I really only think PDWs serve a role as a pilot E&E weapon, (actually using it would defeat the purpose of course) or a protective detail weapon such as Secret Service. A high volume weapon that can be concealed under a jacket is a great asset if you are going up against organized multiple assassins.

Obviously this is very niche and not what a great many of us will be needing anytime soon.

BTW, what ever happened to the good old fashioned Uzi?
 
Yes, that is what made me think of it. Rumor is they are using P90s now which is fine. I brought it up mainly because the MP7 looks a lot like it.
 
BTW, what ever happened to the good old fashioned Uzi?

The original Uzi? Nothing happened to it. It is just a big, heavy 9mm submachine gun that isn't as user-friendly as some options (H&K MP5 for example) that surpassed it in popularity later.

There were also three variants (mini-Uzi, micro-Uzi, and UziPro) -- attempts to make it smaller and mo' better for the intended use.

9mm is still too powerful (ironic, eh?) for very controlled fire from small, light weapons, and yet, not effective at defeating armor.

So, the little PDW concept has been brought to the fore as an attempt to find a better balance of characteristics. And Zoogster pretty much nailed down the pros and cons.

...

As an aside, this is all relating to only the most recent incarnation and revision of the PDW concept.

Many things have been called Personal Defensive Weapons, or built along those principles, over the years. Generally they were simply truncated carbines like the "K" versions of the MP5, or (my absolute favorite) the AKS-74U. Even the M1 Carbine is a PDW in spirit -- i.e.: a short, light, easily carried back-up weapon that is easier to shoot and slightly more effective than a sidearm, intended to be used as a last-ditch defensive tool by officers, rear-echelon types, drivers, and others not usually equipped with mainline rifles.
 
What Im getting at is the Uzi has been around for a bit yet the term PDW is a recent incarnation. The Uzi, even in its largest form is still handier than an MP5 with a collapsable stock (for me) That magazine in front of the grip and trigger throws things off under concealment. Nonetheless they are both still fine options. Uzi is heavy yes in my experience it is easier to fire and more accurate than the MP5 when firing them from the shoulder. The P90 is perhaps the most contollable of the bunch but fires a smaller cartridge and has no provision for removing or collapsing the stock.

I have no experience with the MP7 so I cannot comment on that but it appears to a fine weapon that may or may not take up where the Uzi left off.
 
@smince

well, in the hands of someone highly trained, and in close quarters ... s spray of smaller bullets or COM/head will do the job, too ( i assume)

i wouldn´t feel unarmed with one :)

The original purpose of a PDW was to be used by someone who is not highly trained--support troops rather than combat troops. The issue with giving combat troops a PDW is that they give up long-range capabilities that they may need, but that support personnel likely won't.
 
Come on, no PDW pics? I fast-scrolled this entire post looking for pics!! ;)
 
6a0133ec985af6970b0147e273c032970b-500wi.jpg

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Keep in mind that in other parts of the world those PDWs are select-fire. If you've ever fired a small, lightweight fully automatic weapon with 9mm or larger rounds you'd understand the appeal of the small, lightweight, high-velocity rounds the newer generation uses. It's pretty hard to stay anywhere close to on a target with anything else.
 
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