PDWs: What do you think?

[Dave Markowitz]

The modern PDW concept is predicated on the idea that a 9mmP handgun or SMG won't penetrate body armor, something that hasn't really been an issue in the real world for the most part.

If body armor penetration is an issue and you're an armed force looking for something better than 9mmP, then 7.62x25 would be a better solution than the FN or HK rounds. Alternatively, if you need something really compact, how about an M-1 Carbine with the barrel chopped to 14" and in a Choate folding stock? It would be lighter and handier than an M-4, and have a lot more punch than the 4.6mm or 5.7mm rounds.

Actually, I'd prefer a stock USGI Carbine myself. Unless LTC Carter comes with the FN P90.

 

[Nightcrawler]

One point regarding the .30 Carbine PDW concept. How hard would it be to modernized the .30 carbine round, with a slightly hotter charge and a hardened, pointed bullet, to improve its penetration?

 

[Fletchette]

I like the Kel-Tec and the Russian PP-2000. I understand that these are not front-line assault weapons and are intended for support personel whose job function requires carrying a lot of non-weapon equipment. In this capacity, they really are "defense" weapons that are supposed to be easy enough to hit an adversary so you can retreat.

The Kel-Tec is compact, light and fires 5.56 from USGI M-16/AR-15 mags. The PP-2000 uses 9mm. This is a big plus as ammo is common. I do not understand why gun manufactures bring speciallized cartriges to the market that are identical in performance to existing calibers (marketing?).

I think these two guns would be a good choice for a "bug out bag".

 

[Nightcrawler]

As far as using a super-short 5.56mm carbine as a PDW goes, I think the Kel-Tec would fit the bill nicely.

Better than abreviated M16s, in my opinion. The folding stock is a big plus. Gets the weapon out of the way when it's slung and you're doing other things, but can be rapidly unfolded when things go south.

 

[Model520Fan]

It costs money to train folks to shoot a pistol, can't do that.

Oh, wait, it costs money to train folks to shoot a rifle, can't do that either.

Hey, we can give them something that is the worst of both worlds, and since it is full auto we can hand them out with minimal training!

Least that is how I see it.

Same here.

In fact, the USMC desires that every Marine be a competent rifleman, and, to the best of my limited knowledge, they achieve that. I am sure that they are capable of making competent handgunners, as well.

I would rather see my tax dollars giving work to American ammo factories than to foreign arms producers.

Buying things is usually not a substitute for skill.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

One point regarding the .30 Carbine PDW concept. How hard would it be to modernized the .30 carbine round, with a slightly hotter charge and a hardened, pointed bullet, to improve its penetration?

AIUI, it wouldn't be too hard to load the round hotter, but then you couldn't use those loads in an M-1 Carbine. From what I understand, you can handload for .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawks at levels that would damage a Carbine.

I don't think you'd need to, anyway. .30 Carbine Ball, maybe even JSPs, should punch through most soft body armor.

 

[Medusa]

It is needless here to start bragging about the power of 5.56 and 9mm. You cannot always think in firepower as only front-line troops might have the luck to have only friendlies (aka fellow soldiers) and enemy on the field. Rear line troops are in the areas where civilians also happen to live and these small bores you so hate offer the lack of overpenetration ie minimal risk to non-combatants. Does any 5.56 and 9mm REGULAR ammo (standard military issue) offer the ability to not to shoot the granny with grandchild walking in the area behind the BG? 5.56 and 9mm (regular ball) do not lose very much energy in human body, up to 30% if lucky. So the bullet travels alot after going through the BG. Also the SWAT teams also mostly work in very habitated areas AND no harm must ever come to the innocents. Can your loved 5.56 and 9mm offer that? I do not count doctored rounds here and don't come to insult me with civ-ammo that military doesn't issue regularly. And 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 are originally standard issue military rounds so let's compare these to the appropriate ones.

PDW concept was conceived for REAR-line troops that cannot wield any weapon of considerable size, here are troops like medics, drivers, tankers, aircraft crews (Belgium Air Force issues FiveseveN DAO pistols, for example), guards and suchs; they cannot have anything dangle on them and distract from main job. Small caliber means low recoil (considerably smaller than 9mm and 5.56) which means accurate shots, whether in single or full auto fire, fast follow-ups (can shoot the BG quickly and with several bullets), also it means very stable auto-fire (P90 is very controllable and accurate in FA due small recoil) and list goes on. Yes you can argue that commandos can do the same with M4 and such but please try to remember as those beforementioned rear line troops are not any of that and may not be born-shooters. So the weapon must be easily handled and used by them. In ambush, like, the driver should be able to fire the gun off-hand and instinctivly as there might not be time so wield it properly. Can any regular shoot the M4 single handed from hip and hit the BG repeatedly?

Bear in mind that these guns the FN and HK offers are not competing rifle rounds, these are to fill the niche of small guns with rifle-ballistics and yet minimal danger to non-combatants and are mostly ment to be used in civilized areas where normal and ordinary people do happen to live. This gun-machismo is sometimes very ignorant ant wise should recognize it.

 

[dpesec]

Dr. Rob you mean the French attack anything, I would think that Greenpeace would be a very dangerous adversery to attack without first getting an international agreement and assistance.

 

[NMshooter]

To reiterate:

I personally would prefer a 9mm or .45cal pistol over any pistol caliber subgun, including anything in 4.6mm or 5.7mm.

Those subcaliber pistol rounds are ineffective and I can shoot a normal handgun just fine.

An actual carbine or rifle is even better. It does not get in the way when you realise there is no such thing as a "rear area" or a "front line" and you are responsible for your own security.

Of course, I learned to shoot on my own dime.

Conscript military forces do not like to waste money on things like properly training infantry to shoot, much less support troops. Heck, our all voluntary force does not train support troops well enough, with the notable exception of the USMC.

 

[RyanM]

For a civilian police department, take the extra $$ you're spending on "bling" and spend it on ammo and training. And buy your officers 16" .30-30 lever guns. No semi-auto, so that they don't spray and pray in an urban environment, and so they think about aiming. Give 'em scout-mounted scopes, but nothing extreme.

It's too bad no one makes a .30-30 pump-action anymore. That would be just about ideal for PDs, I think, since it would operate almost exactly the same as the 12 gauge shotguns cops are already trained on.