What Are The Places Where Social Violence Happens?

This is almost straight out of Meditations on Violence. Terrific book.

Two notes. Massad Ayoob has said that there are three ways to avoid almost all lethal force encounters (if you're not an LEO): Don't get drunk in public; don't engage in illegal activities (like dealing drugs); and don't cheat on your spouse.

Second, I have spent some time in ERs. The stories of surviving gunshot victims were all remarkably similar: "I was just standing on this corner (at 3AM), minding my own business, when these two dudes pulled up and shot me for no reason!" [The exact nature of the business he was minding was usually left unspecified! ]

I concluded that city street corners are to be avoided at 3AM.

Along with a career as a cop I worked for many years one or two nights a month at a local emergency room (an off-duty, in uniform job that everyone got a chance at..). The one striking thing about the casualties that I won't be forgetting anytime soon.... almost all of them smelled of alcohol (other substances might have been involved but you could almost always count on the alcohol...). To this day I can smell the mix of liquor and blood... Few were GSW's - lots of split heads and other things that needed more than just a band-aid. I'm sure it's no different in the countryside you just see more of it in a big city.

This is well and good but bad things still happen to good people in places they are comfortable and should feel safe in.
Home invasions
Business/work shootings
Robberies
Car Jackings
Immigration/drug violence along border states

The criminals are not so exclusive to bad areas and IMO are increasingly moving into "safe" areas where the pickin is better.
I'm in full agreement on staying out for bad places but don't want to discount the randomness of crime either.

Isn't Tom Givens' version of this something to the effect of, "Don't go stupid places, don't do stupid things, don't hang out with stupid people?"

Sam-

That is John Farnam's "Rule of the 3 S's" .

That's probably some pretty accurate information for sure.

However ... (that always happens, doesn't it) following that train of logic one would practically have to lead a rather unsocial and dull existence. Let's take a look at these.

Where people get their minds altered. Drugs, alcohol, or even ecstatic drumming, things that break down the social conditioning against violence increase the likelihood of violence. Who'd a thunk it?

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Good idea with the bit about staying away from drugs, booze and ... what ... discos?
At its heart the argument is good. Drugs are generally a bad influence to be around, but I know plenty of very mild mannered pot heads who frankly don't pose a danger to anything other than a bag of chips late at night.
Alcohol is arguably one of the more universally bad influences. Even the happiest of drunks in my opinion are likely to hang out with the less than happy and angry types from time to time so I really can't argue against that.
Now the third example here sounds a bit oddly specific. What the author I'm sure meant is to stay away from Rap clubs and Punk concerts. Sadly he didn't say that. He said "ecstatic drumming." Yup. You heard it here first, Rock and Roll is bad for your health! Take for instance the european Techno scene. While having a tragic occurence of OD instances violence frankly is not the biggest threat here. The illegality of substance usage and thus the lack of control over manufacture, or even the simple usage of substances is. Not the "ecstatic drumming."

Next let's take a look at the next point. Lemme just copy and paste here ....

Where young men gather in groups. An audience plus insecurities about status are a recipe for Monkey Dance violence.

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Right. Young Men. Which again it is probably statistically true that violence happens mostly in those places I have to ask how one young man (Which most of us were or are at some point in our lives. It's true.) can engage with his peers? Because we all know now our own peers at some point in our lives are a bad influence and increase our likelihood to be violenced upon.

Where territories are in dispute. War or the edge between rival gang territory, doesn't matter. Violence is more common and even the types of violence are similar: raids and drive-bys; spray 'n' pray and collateral damage.

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Pretty accurate. Warzones and gang territories are bad JuJu. I can't argue against that.

Next up is ...

Where you don't know the rules. Groups have rules and those rules will be enforced. In certain groups, they will be enforced with a look or a word. In others if you refuse to acknowledge your error, the correction may be violent

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This is a sticky point as well and promotes isolationism or at least argues against expanding ones horizons. Probably the most obvious example of overcautiousness here. I personally don't know the rules in oh say ... Chinatown in Portland. Now, being a casual walker through, should I (very smartly) avoid the entire area? According to this "safe logic" ... yes I should. Or at least I should walk around in "Condition Orange" and look like a paranoid loon .... which possibly could provoke someone into violencing me.

My point is, for those who didn't read the whole thing is that these rules are fine and dandy, but essentially they're telling someone who buys into them to stop growing as an individual (by avoiding new experiences), to avoid feeling passionate (either with ones peers or due to loud drums?!) and to avoid large group socialization (so you're forever stuck feeling uncomfortable in a large crowd. There is a term for that, but I forgot it.) ...
Call me odd, but some of this logic sounds utterly absurd. It's like saying if you really wanted to be safe from meteors one shouldn't leave a reinforced bunker. Yes. It is true, but obviously this logic has little to no place in what most of the human race would consider normal social interaction.

Hi Tom! Should have gone back to the original source! Thanks for the correction!

My point is, for those who didn't read the whole thing is that these rules are fine and dandy, but essentially they're telling someone who buys into them to stop growing as an individual (by avoiding new experiences), to avoid feeling passionate (either with ones peers or due to loud drums?!) and to avoid large group socialization (so you're forever stuck feeling uncomfortable in a large crowd. There is a term for that, but I forgot it.) ...
Call me odd, but some of this logic sounds utterly absurd. It's like saying if you really wanted to be safe from meteors one shouldn't leave a reinforced bunker. Yes. It is true, but obviously this logic has little to no place in what most of the human race would consider normal social interaction.

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If you are looking for religious text to blindly follow, perhaps you would take this advice as such. Most of us, though, tend to weigh costs and benefits over a more subtle scale.

But life IS full of compromises. Not all things that are neat experiences are wise. Not all things that are worth doing are completely safe and to be entered into blindly. Not every person who enters a questionable situation presents the same target profile, either.

Music clubs are awesome places to expand your mind and receive some of the blessings that life can offer. They are also pretty universally known as locations for unpleasantness. Dark, distracting areas frequented by often mildly inebriated folks who's' consciousnesses are altered/relaxed by various experiences and substances, who have enough disposable income (with them) to enjoy a night on the town, become haunts of predators.

Do you avoid them altogether? Some of us do, some don't. Do we step up our situational awareness and make a conscious effort to analyze what's going on around us when attending (and especially when arriving or leaving)? Absolutely.

Groups of peers? Or groups of young men, generally? Or both? Again, this isn't hanging out with your close pals we're talking about. This would be more akin to loitering with those, as the old saying goes, with "idle hands." Time to kill. Youth, testosterone, an audience, and boredom are assuredly a bad mix. Proceed with caution.

Drugs ... that kind of goes without saying. If you fool with that community at all you certainly deserve little sympathy when the "unthinkable" happens. Your mild-mannered pothead buddy all of a sudden turns out to have some very unpleasant dealer friends? Woah. Surprise! ...?

We've had this discussion before, centered around the ideas of going out for the evening and having (more than) a few to cut loose at the end of the week. What's the harm? Or, more difficult for some to accept, letting your guard completely down through the allure of casual, impromptu intimate relations. Young men tend to really enjoy the "freedom" to leave their cares (and their weapons) behind for a night of drinking and hooking up, and really don't want to be told that there are real, physical, immediate dangers of those activities that the school nurse didn't tell you about.

Not everything that is fun or cool is wise. But perhaps not everything that raises our risk level above baseline must be assiduously avoided. When you compromise your security (and we all do in various ways), try to do so with your eyes wide open and to retain the ability to discern and evaluate what's happening around you. And try to follow the steps you would normally take to avoid fitting into the victim profile, even though you may be putting on that hat, to some degree, willingly.

But perhaps not everything that raises our risk level above baseline must be assiduously avoided. When you compromise your security (and we all do in various ways), try to do so with your eyes wide open and to retain the ability to discern and evaluate what's happening around you.

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Exactly. I just really fail to see where these texts put this into perspective. You or me may not look at these as gospel, but I can guarantee you they're not targeted at us.
You of all people know from dealing with the S&T forum that there *is* people who take these as gospel. 8)

almost all of them smelled of alcohol

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Bingo! I love good quality drinks, but there is no doubt whatsoever that bars are a nexus of violent crime. If you order all the police records of cases arising in or outside a given bar, you will be awe-struck by the sheer volume of material.

Don't go to bars, rule No. 1. With exceptions for brewpubs and the more sedate gay bars. Otherwise you're entering a world where young men are trying to be as stupid as possible. And every bottle is a potentially lethal weapon.

I know of cases where people have been stabbed and others who've had their faces cut open with a glass for no reason other than being too close to someone who is an instant animal when booze and women are added. The attackers don't even know why they do this stuff. They're not really humans in that environment, so it's a good idea to steer clear of them and where they lurk.

This isn't just about young men, either. In fact you're not going to have the same kinds of trouble at a rave with a bunch of dippy teens on XTC as you will at your average down-and-out corner bar. There are burned out men who've spent many years just prowling around such places looking for another ticket to prison.

In some ways it's about very specific PLACES, because of the people these places attract. Any cop can tell you there are notorious addresses the PD has to respond to constantly. It's gotten so bad that some cities have started nuisance actions to shut them down. It could be a housing complex, a bar, or a seedy motel. They respawn trouble like a location in a video game. Though it's true trouble can happen anywhere, there are spots on the map that ought to be no-go.

Exactly. I just really fail to see where these texts put this into perspective. You or me may not look at these as gospel, but I can guarantee you they're not targeted at us.
You of all people know from dealing with the S&T forum that there *is* people who take these as gospel. 8)

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Oh sure, but maybe those that see anything like this as some form of Holy writ need to still have the training wheels on a bit.

I mean, if you don't understand the differences between appropriately preparing (strategy) for a night out at an upscale jazz dinner club, say, and NOT going to an after-hours hip-hop club in the back of an industrial park ... maybe staying home is really the better option.

In the end there is a Well DUH! aspect to all this. The magi of the self-defense mindset are cautioning us that we should not be completely surprised when trouble appears in these locations.

We may be forgiven for being caught unawares in a home invasion in a nice neighborhood. That's still pretty rare. Your home is where you MUST be able to go to "Condition White." (We all have to.)

But enter these other locations with a strong amber glow to your "Condition Yellow," because the chances absolutely are that trouble IS there -- guaranteed -- and it MAY indeed find you.

If you aren't prepared to step up your awareness and be mindful -- or you're heading somewhere to be deliberately UN-mindful -- stay home.

Never attempt to "turn your life around."

This is a recipe for disaster.

Over the years I have seen dozens of previously animate young men lying motionless on a sidewalk - and almost universally their relatives have said that "he was just turning his life around."

Along the same lines, getting a GED is a virtual death sentence.

If a riot is happening in your area, get the heck out of there. Don't go visit the riot, stay away.

I was in LA during the Rodney King riots. Two white guys got on their motorcycles just to see the riots. They were pulled off their motorcycles and killed. I think they were murdered in Anaheim CA. Fifty three people were murdered over the weekend.

Stay away from riots!

Places most likely to find violence?

well, lets define violence. A shoving contest in a bar parking lot? Is that violence?

If so, then here's my opinion on where to find the most violence...

wherever the young humans go to participate in the human mating ritual. Places of mixed ethnicity/culture tend to be more violent than places of homogeneous ethnicity/culture.

So, when you have a "pickup joint" aka a singles bar where youngsters go to impress eachother and find mates, you will find violence. If this place is not of homogeneous ethnicity/culture, the odds of violence go up even more. The more booze consumed, the more likely the violence. The more money being thrown around, the more likely the violence. The louder the music and later the hour, the more likely the violence. The more promiscuous the participants are, the more likely the violence.

forgot to add: the less educated the participants, the more likely the violence.

Where young men gather in groups

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There are a few events each year in Indianapolis that attract young men, and usually involve alcohol and crowds. Its almost a guarantee that there will be a shooting in the news related with the crowds involved.

With the exception of the cocktail lounge of a nice restaurant or little "Cheers" type places during "happy hour," I stay away from bars.

Lee,

Great thread and I appreciate it being posted. May I suggest we Sticky this, for a short time?

Steve

This part of OK is going through Act II of the meth scourge. Social violence can happen anywhere, any time.

Head on over to you nearest MacDonalds .... bring a camera phone and your 1911!

I've seen some crazy crazy stuff over the years. one comes to mind...

I was in a quiet neighborhood bar one evening around 9PM, roughly the year 2000. In walks 5 guys that look like they stepped right out of the punk rock scene, England circa 1980. They were wearing old fashioned black leather combat boots, cut off fatiques, and dog collars. facial piercings and pasty white skin...like vampires. none of them said a word. None of them ordered a drink. They sat in the corner just looking at each other. Then one of them says "go", and they all instantly pounced on one guy drinking alone in the bar and beat the ever loving * out of him. Then they all ran out the door and dissappeared. The guy they beat up was a regular and said he'd never seen the guys before in his life. And I believed him.

Social violence may occur where 2 or more people gather and could be started by the most trivial thing.

consider the advice given to women to prevent rape
generally it's "don't go where you are vulnerable"

and seem to be along the same line as what this thread is saying...
as in there are certain places and situations where violence is likely to occur.
and bitching about it afterwards is like asking why you were shot in a war zone, it happens.

shadow, that only covers about 95% of violence. The other 5% is completely random lunatic stuff that no one can avoid...like a punk kid walking into a shopping mall with a glock and gunning people down. Or the example I witnessed and gave in post #22.