Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program

Doug b #193
Fast and furiuos was a project INSIDE gunrunner http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/OIG_report.pdf requested by mexican gov. I hope the link work and you folks have time to read it.

Click to expand...

OK, I downloaded the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, WORKING DRAFT REPORT, Review of ATF’s Project Gunrunner, September 2010 from MSNBC website.

There is no mention of Operation Fast and Furious period, not even the word "furious" itself, much less operation fast & furious being requested by the Mexican Government. Page cites please?

The document I quoted about Operation Fast & Furious was The Department of Justice’s Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents, JOINT STAFF REPORT, Prepared for Rep. Darrell E. Issa, Chairman United States House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform & Senator Charles E. Grassley, Ranking Member United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 112th Congress June 14 2011
http://grassley.senate.gov/judiciar...nt-Issa-Grassley-report-on-agent-findings.pdf

ADDED: The ATF agents critical of F&F made the point that the Mexican authorities were not notified about F&F, so the guns and/or gunrunners allowed to "walk" could not be followed.

Vern Humphrey said:

Fast and Furious is the corollary to the Obama Administration's policy of "Don't let a crisis go to waste."

They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."

And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.

Click to expand...

Yes, a crisis designed from its inception to "tweak" public acceptance of expanded gun control.

Vern Humphrey said:

BATFE ought to have been abolished after the Waco fiasco.

Click to expand...

No, when Ruby Ridge happened!

More Data

Another item has surfaced, which I didn't see mentioned earlier.

This article here: "Holder's Office Assures America that Obama Directed Project Gunrunner, March 2009" contains a link to a couple of videos, one of which offers some quote material from March of 2009:

Early in the Obama administration, on March 24, 2009 according to MidNightRider2001, the poster of this video, Eric Holder’s Deputy Attorney General, David Ogden assured America and the world of the strategic involvement of President Obama as well as Holder himself, in Project Gunrunner, using funds from the “stimulus” act.

Click to expand...

It would seem, the farther we get into this, that FedGov has, indeed, been caught with its hand in the cookie jar.

I must concur with an earlier analysis that this was designed as a "false flag" operation to bolster the "US guns fueling Mexico violence" stats to justify new regulations and restrictions.

I find it nearly hysterical that, while it (FedGov) is even now being investigated for this crime, the Executive attempts to enact those rules on a bypass of Congress, using the fake stats as justification.

Gawd.

You just couldn't make this stuff up. Even the screen writers for popular cop shows would reject the premise and feel compelled to make the story at least plausible!

Under Project Gunrunner, US GAO 2008 firearms stats showed:
37,200 firearms siezed by Mexican authorities, of which
7,200 submitted by Mexican authorities for US tracing, of which
4,000 were successfully traced, of which
3,480 were of US origin.

Operation Fast and Furious beginning fall 2009 through 2010 let as many as 2,000 to 2,500 firearms bought by suspicious straw purchasers "walk". That's a lot of additional "US origin" guns.

Carl your 2 time convicted felon chairing the House oversight comm. has about this much credibility http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...se_docs_wouldnt_fit_his_narrative.php?ref=fpa Issa's reputation preceedes him.

Any time government does things that a private citizen would go to jail for doing, it should be illegal as hell. Stings, no knocks, you pick what ever trick the government is using. Declared war is different.

Gotta problem serving a warrant on a suspected drug dealer, then drive up with an armored vehicle, don't bust down the door at 2:00 AM with a swat team and kill everyone in the house.

This thing letting guns go into Mexico should have people charged with accessory to murder, that is what it was. As a supporter of the Second Amendment, treason comes to mind as an additional charge.

Clutch

Arming an insurection without authorization from Congress comes to mind alsr maybe they had authorization and when did they get it.

I'm not trying to get into activism here, but we should all email whoever we can to make sure this stays at the forefront of peoples thoughts and the news. It'd be tragic to let it fall by the wayside.

I have friends who are unaware this even happened, so please spread the word.

It'll be interesting to see where this all ends up.

tpmmuckraker is a reference on credibility?

The implausibility factor just went up another notch.

"tpmmuckraker is a reference on credibility? "

Ah but facts are facts take your pick http://www.google.com/search?source...aql=&oq=darel+issa+++finacial+crisis+inquirey

This just in:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PF-7aYe5wHU/Th4WfT5EvpI/AAAAAAAAI1Y/bJ7jH1ai1JY/s1600/chaitemail.png

Ah but facts are facts take your pick

Click to expand...

The very headlines tell us the articles in question are long on opinions and short on facts, and the sources tell us why.

Daily Kos: Rep. Darrell Issa will only hold investigations that . . .

Click to expand...

Issa Exposed : Home Page (on issawatch.couragecampaign.org)

Click to expand...

Dems: Issa Scrapped Hearing On Financial Commission Because Docs ... (On tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/.../dems_issa_scraped_hearing_on_ ...)

Click to expand...

Sometimes checking the sources does tell you a lot about their credibility.

Vern interesting that you mention the first three hits on Google as these are the most viewed yes they are lefty sights and you helped keep them there.I went out to 26 pages "of headlines" and there were many more.Now whats fact,whats opinion and who's credible.Issa a 2 time convicted felon(grand theft auto,and arson) does not have the credence to hold any hearing hell this clown can vote on the U.S.house of representives floor but can't vote in an election.

Doug B wrote:

Now whats fact,whats opinion and who's credible.Issa a 2 time convicted felon(grand theft auto,and arson) does not have the credence to hold any hearing hell this clown can vote on the U.S.house of representives floor but can't vote in an election.

Click to expand...

Issa has never been convicted of felony charges. Arrested yes, convicted.....nope. Time to get your facts straight! He has plead guilty to possession of an unregistered firearm, a misdemeanor. Charges were dropped in the other cases. If you are going to attack someone's credibility, you'd best be sure your own is unimpeachable. Please, provide dates of his "convictions" on felony charges. theres a world of difference between being charged, being a suspect, and actually being convicted. "Facts are facts" as you say...but pointless hyperbole is just hyperbole as well. Before accusing someone of being a convicted felon, I suggest you make sure its actually true. in this case, its simply false. Issa is not a convicted felon. If you wish to argue this point further, I'll be awaiting dates of convictions and the case numbers involved. If he actually was a felon, these records would NOT be hard to obtain. Howevdr, the fact of the matter is that while Issa may have a BROTHER convicted of a felony, he himself HAS NEVER BEEN CONVICTED ON ANY FELNY CHARGE, let alone multiple charges as you've claimed above:banghead:

Let's get back to the topic at hand.
Here is what tpmmuckraker said about the hearings at which agents testified about the gunwalking:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...against_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=mblt

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) wouldn't let ATF agents testifying before his House Oversight Committee hearing Wednesday on the controversial Project Gunrunner say how weak U.S. gun laws were making it difficult for them to catch criminals smuggling assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels.

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) asked one of the agents if weak gun laws made their prosecutions difficult.

"One of you in your testimonies called these laws to prosecute 'toothless.' Could explain to me -- why are existing straw purchase laws 'toothless'?" Maloney asked.

Issa butted in to say that their ATF agent's opinions on U.S. gun laws would not be "considered valid testimony."

"I want to caution the witnesses that the scope of this, your testimony here is limited, and that it's not about proposed legislation and the like and under House rules would not fall within the scope of this," Issa said. "So, anecdotally you can have opinions but ultimately it would not be considered valid testimony.

Click to expand...

So the big problem revealed by the hearings was that Issa would not allow them to turn into a debate about new gun control laws, and insisted on performing oversight of the government's wrongdoing.

tpmmuckraker did bring up the subject of the hearings, noting that Project Gunrunner is "controversial." That's all the public needs to know about Fast and Furious, so they moved on to Issa's insistence on oversight as the real problem revealed at the hearings...

And they are a reference on credibility? Hah!

Operation Fast and Furious is the controversial offshoot from Project Gunrunner

We should remember the process in Project Gunrunner 2005-to date was to interdict the guns/straw purchasers ASAP, before the guns got across border. However, that was not producing the kind of stats some in ATF wanted to see.

In the fall of 2009, Operation Fast and Furious (OF&F) was begun within Project Gunrunner, allowing the guns and purchasers essentially to disappear into Mexico, then tracking stats as the guns were recovered from crimes.

As evidenced from the e-mails released by Sen Grassley between one of the FFL dealers and the ATF official he was cooperating with, the dealer believed he was cooperating with Project Gunrunner, and had no idea that ATF was following the Operation Fast and Furious paradigm of allowing the guns and purchasers to "walk".

I have been trying to follow what the ATF agents and FFL dealers are saying about OF&F. And my source cited above was a staff report prepared for Grassley and Issa from statements mainly by the ATF agents critical of OF&F. Trashing the credibility of one of the receipients of the report (Issa) does not trash the credibility of the report itself.

You're using argumentum ad hominem and citing leftist sources -- which you yourself admit are biased.

Now, Issa may be many things -- but the evidence is not based on Issa but on the testimony of people where were there and in the know.

Now, Issa may be many things -- but the evidence is not based on Issa but on the testimony of people where were there and in the know.

Click to expand...

When BATFE (I REFUSE to call them ATF) are up to their necks in it, it's a given that BATFE and AHSA types will pop up on various forums to muddy the waters and try to defend the indefensible.

When BATFE (I REFUSE to call them ATF) are up to their necks in it, it's a given that BATFE and AHSA types will pop up on various forums to muddy the waters and try to defend the indefensible.

Click to expand...

You better believe it!

Can you think of anything so outrageous as the government committing a crime, and then government shills smearing the people investigating the crime?

Can you think of anything so outrageous as the government committing a crime, and then government shills smearing the people investigating the crime?

Click to expand...

Not quite as bad, but here in Ohio we just had another cop order somebody not to speak, then arrest them for "failure to promptly notify" that they had a CHL and were carrying. There were a lot of borderline psychotic death threats by the cop too. All caught on dashcam of course.

The more that comes out about "Fast and Furious" the more OBVIOUS it becomes that it was a "Reichstag Fire" operation intended to justify more gun control. Holder must have a good lawyer, because we've heard less from him lately than from DB Cooper. If he's LUCKY, he'll just have to resign. I'm sure this goes above him too, and there's only ONE person above him.

I think this may close the loop here.

Not quite as bad, but here in Ohio we just had another cop order somebody not to speak, then arrest them for "failure to promptly notify" that they had a CHL and were carrying. There were a lot of borderline psychotic death threats by the cop too. All caught on dashcam of course.

The more that comes out about "Fast and Furious" the more OBVIOUS it becomes that it was a "Reichstag Fire" operation intended to justify more gun control. Holder must have a good lawyer, because we've heard less from him lately than from DB Cooper. If he's LUCKY, he'll just have to resign. I'm sure this goes above him too, and there's only ONE person above him.

Click to expand...

I think you've just illustrated the point.

In the Ohio case you have an officer who is in the wrong, and presumably the police department investigated and disciplined him.

In Fast and Furious, you have an organization that is in the wrong, and is working hard to cover it up. And using every trick in the book, including character assassination of the men in Congress who are investigating them.

In the Ohio case you have an officer who is in the wrong, and presumably the police department investigated and disciplined him.

Click to expand...

That's yet to be proved. The indications are to the contrary. So far, the prosecutor has offered to drop the charges in exchange for an agreement not to sue. The victim, through counsel, has wisely told the prosecutor to pound sand. A major goal appears to be to use this and other similar cases (one of which I've previously described here) as a cudgel to get the notification requirement repealed. It is now FULLY documented to be something with which Ohio police cannot be trusted.

In Fast and Furious, you have an organization that is in the wrong, and is working hard to cover it up. And using every trick in the book, including character assassination of the men in Congress who are investigating them.

Click to expand...

That's hardly unique to Federal law enforcement. Look at the murder of Kathryn Johnston by the Atlanta PD. They stuck with the story that she was a drug dealer right up until the point that the confidential informant they tried to strongarm escaped and ran to the FBI. Heck, they even planted drugs in her house after they murdered her. All documented, and backed up by signed confessions. If the leadership of the Atlanta PD even scratched the surface to see how deep this all went, I'd be VERY surprised. I have NO doubt that they're playing the odds that outsiders won't find things which THEY know are there.