DammitBoy
Member
It has resulted in more gun control restrictions, so their plan worked out perfectly.
Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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HorseSoldier
Member
And the political fallout may contribute to the Great O not getting a second term in office. Not exactly Hollywood blockbuster plotline level brilliance.
Having spent my entire adult life working for one component/level of government or another, this doesn't look like conspiracy to me. It looks like every other governmental disaster -- incompetent political appointees and bureaucrats promoted past their level of competence cooking up a dumb idea and then scrambling to not own it when the error of their ways is revealed.
Having spent my entire adult life working for one component/level of government or another, this doesn't look like conspiracy to me. It looks like every other governmental disaster -- incompetent political appointees and bureaucrats promoted past their level of competence cooking up a dumb idea and then scrambling to not own it when the error of their ways is revealed.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Which any reasonable person could forsee.
And when a person or organization does something that a reasonable person would see likely to result in a felony, they have themselves committed a felony.
azmjs
member
This is not a Steven Segal movie.
The program was plainly ill-conceived.
Not the first example of incompetence or folly leading to an undesirable and unintended outcome.
The program was plainly ill-conceived.
Not the first example of incompetence or folly leading to an undesirable and unintended outcome.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I think it worked just like it was meant to work -- except they assumed on one would find out about it. They expected innocent people to die, and planned to make hay from that.
azmjs
member
Sure they did.
It's a conspiracy, huh?
It's a conspiracy, huh?
CapnMac
Member
Some of this is also in the "class difference" of Beltway types versus "flyover" folk. Gun ownership is functionally illegal in Mexico. But, it's common for those well-enough off to own houses to also buy (or be given) arms to defend them. And, as gifts, the arms bought are the fancier, expensive, arms available to US dealers.
Traffickers do not deal in the small lots that AFTE was "letting out" they buy from people who deliver by the plane load. All PGR/FnF was ever likely to find were people caught in the crossfire, or in the border insurrections like that in Juarez.
Not that a person could likely explain that in small enough terms for the more-pointy-haired SES Beltway types would likely understand. For those beltway folks with political motivation, well, that colors any ability to rationally understand their actions at all.
From what is said in this video it looks like it was conceived by Holder & Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=youtu.be
publius
Member
My problem with it was that it was sooooo ill-conceived that no reasonable person could believe the plan. Wait for guns to show up at crime scenes, do some mysterious step that no one can name, bust kingpins.
It just does not add up.
The program did succeed in producing calls for more gun control, and that outcome was predictable.
A program that will predictably cause mayhem and calls for gun control did exactly that, and we are supposed to believe it was intended to do something that NO ONE would predict it could do?
publius
Member
Doug b, learn the differences between Gunrunner and Fast and Furious, then return to the discussion.
azmjs
member
The first step out of reality and into pure paranoiac fantasy is believing that you know with anything approaching certainty that you can 'eliminate' the possible motives of other people.
Mistakes, incompetence, miscommunication, bad management, and folly are not only all very very real, they are also much much more likely and plausible than sinister conspiracies and cabals.
I don't think everyone with paranoid delusional thinking necessarily needs psychiatric help, I think a vigorous reality check can be sufficient to regain a grip on the real world.
Mistakes, incompetence, miscommunication, bad management, and folly are not only all very very real, they are also much much more likely and plausible than sinister conspiracies and cabals.
I don't think everyone with paranoid delusional thinking necessarily needs psychiatric help, I think a vigorous reality check can be sufficient to regain a grip on the real world.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Operation Fast and Furious:
Gunwalker 2005 sieze illegal guns and buyers asap
Fast and Furious 2009 let 'em walk
Different administrations, different policies.
Carl N. Brown
Member
In fantasy, our authority figures are in total control and know what they are doing.
In reality, our authority figures unleash random chaos without thinking through the unintended consequences of their actions.
Somehow the fantasy world seems safer than the reality world.
In reality, our authority figures unleash random chaos without thinking through the unintended consequences of their actions.
Somehow the fantasy world seems safer than the reality world.
Unistat
Member
The Gunrunner Project was an initiative to provide enhanced tracking capabilities including database access and software to Mexico and other South of the border countries. Started under the G.W. Bush Administration.
Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.
The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?
Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.
The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?
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JohnBT
Member
"right wing fear mongering"
Where? I wanna see some. Which way did they go?
Where? I wanna see some. Which way did they go?
Fast and furiuos was a project INSIDE gunrunner http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/OIG_report.pdf requested by mexican gov. I hope the link work and you folks have time to read it.
Ignition Override
Member
Unistat: "Roger that".
What a shame that Attorney General Eric Holder is not held responsible for operations which he was aware of and approved,
but that is how "plausible denial" works.
It reminds me a bit of the senseless tragedy of an American Eagle ATR-42 turboprop, which crashed years ago in Roselawn, IN.
Two of the exact type almost lost control flying over southern Europe, but our friends at the FAA kept quiet about their knowledge of the "aileron snatch" behind ice ridges formed during holding in clouds with certain types of droplets, which was contrary to normal wing icing certification, hoping that the rare but nasty characteristics would Not lead to dead passengers in the US.
The FAA was Passive, and only kept their calm "poker faces", but elements within the ATF Actively pressured gun store owners to condone sales which were likely to contribute to many deaths.
What a shame that Attorney General Eric Holder is not held responsible for operations which he was aware of and approved,
but that is how "plausible denial" works.
It reminds me a bit of the senseless tragedy of an American Eagle ATR-42 turboprop, which crashed years ago in Roselawn, IN.
Two of the exact type almost lost control flying over southern Europe, but our friends at the FAA kept quiet about their knowledge of the "aileron snatch" behind ice ridges formed during holding in clouds with certain types of droplets, which was contrary to normal wing icing certification, hoping that the rare but nasty characteristics would Not lead to dead passengers in the US.
The FAA was Passive, and only kept their calm "poker faces", but elements within the ATF Actively pressured gun store owners to condone sales which were likely to contribute to many deaths.
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Thats your opinion at this point. The facts are FAR from being clear, and this isn't a cut and dried case of simple incompetence. You may feel as though it was a well-intended operation gone bad. Thats your OPINION, tnad you are certainly entitled to it. However, to deadpanly declare it as fact is jumping the gun, so to speak. This program was so poorly conceived, that it could NOT have Possibly EVER gone down as planned, and anyone who cares to study its premise should have realized that from square one. When Mexican authorities are not involved, and US authorites cannot monitor the guns once south of the border, exactly how was this operation EVER going to be a success? On its face, it has "bad idea" written all over it. When you take into further consideration the fact the main target of the operation is already allegedly a paid government informant for the FBI who is by all accounts "untouchable" by the ATF, the plan deteriorates considerably further. Simply put, the idea this may be a conspiracy with the intent of more gun control being the goal isn't hard to latch on to, considering there was no effective way this operation would have ever gone down in the manner the ATF is trying to sell the public. If this WAS simply a plan gone bad (which I don't personally believe) the amount of utter and sheer incompetence involved should bring about an audit of the ATF and their activities. If a plan this monumentally bad was given the go-ahead, heads need to roll. Regardless of orignal intent, this operation stinks of incompetence on so many levels it isn't even remotely funny anymore.
Chief_Cabioch
Member.
one sure way to lessen the supply of class three weapons is to invole them in a crime.....presto, that weapon is now off the market, second the ATF is a political tool of the left, and is over stepping it's questionable Authority, now it seems it's asumming power to decide border states have different rules to live by and thanfully the NRA is going to file suit as soon as the first demand letters reach Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California FFL's, as someone who has wittnesed time and time again the ATF out of control it is time the agency was ended and some agents absorbed by other less politically motivated agencies, that have a much clearer mandate, and not making "policy" that is essentially a law......and the ATF has no authority to make Law.....thats the Job of elected officials residing in Congress, or the Senate.
Chief_Cabioch
Member.
The Gunrunner Project was an initiative to provide enhanced tracking capabilities including database access and software to Mexico and other South of the border countries. Started under the G.W. Bush Administration.
Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.
The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?
__________________
There's basically two kinds of people in the world. People who believe in the Moon Landing and people who don't.
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Last edited by Unistat; Yesterday at 09:13 PM.
with all due respect....the ATF agents admitted under oath they only had GPS tracking devices in (2) of the 2300 guns involved....that may sound like a legitimate way to lie, "yes we tracked them"......but in all Honesty rings far from the truth, which was to further drum up Anti Gun support and to make Guns the Demons of the world and a cause of more Restrictive Gun rights.......which accordiung to most statsitics have the exact oposite effect of those that are promised, more crime not less, more deaths not less....etc....
Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.
The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?
__________________
There's basically two kinds of people in the world. People who believe in the Moon Landing and people who don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Unistat; Yesterday at 09:13 PM.
with all due respect....the ATF agents admitted under oath they only had GPS tracking devices in (2) of the 2300 guns involved....that may sound like a legitimate way to lie, "yes we tracked them"......but in all Honesty rings far from the truth, which was to further drum up Anti Gun support and to make Guns the Demons of the world and a cause of more Restrictive Gun rights.......which accordiung to most statsitics have the exact oposite effect of those that are promised, more crime not less, more deaths not less....etc....
Ummm....this controversy has nothing to do with "class three" weapons and primarily concerns the sales of common, legally available semi-auto military style rifles, such as various AK-47 clones. To the best of my knowledge, no machine guns or other NFA weapons legally registered in the US have turned up at Mexican crime scenes.
Chief_Cabioch
Member.
Quote:
Operation gunrunner was started in 2005 haven't seen that mentioned in the 6 pages of right wing fear mongering I was able to suffer through. For those not in the know 2005 was the G.W.Bush admin.
Operation Fast and Furious:
Quote:
In the fall of 2009, the Department of Justice (DOJ) developed a risky new strategy to combat gun trafficking along the Southwest Border. The new strategy directed federal law enforcement to shift its focus away from seizing firearms from criminals as soon as possible—and to focus instead on identifying members of trafficking networks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) implemented that strategy using a reckless investigative technique that street agents call “gunwalking.”
Gunwalker 2005 sieze illegal guns and buyers asap
Fast and Furious 2009 let 'em walk
Different administrations, different policies.
__________________
Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.
well it might just be because you or anyone else have provided links, or other ways to prove what till now would be front page News if it was negative, and about the Bushg administration.......dont you think ?
Operation gunrunner was started in 2005 haven't seen that mentioned in the 6 pages of right wing fear mongering I was able to suffer through. For those not in the know 2005 was the G.W.Bush admin.
Operation Fast and Furious:
Quote:
In the fall of 2009, the Department of Justice (DOJ) developed a risky new strategy to combat gun trafficking along the Southwest Border. The new strategy directed federal law enforcement to shift its focus away from seizing firearms from criminals as soon as possible—and to focus instead on identifying members of trafficking networks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) implemented that strategy using a reckless investigative technique that street agents call “gunwalking.”
Gunwalker 2005 sieze illegal guns and buyers asap
Fast and Furious 2009 let 'em walk
Different administrations, different policies.
__________________
Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.
well it might just be because you or anyone else have provided links, or other ways to prove what till now would be front page News if it was negative, and about the Bushg administration.......dont you think ?
Vern Humphrey
Member
Fast and Furious is the corollary to the Obama Administration's policy of "Don't let a crisis go to waste."
They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."
And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.
They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."
And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.
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