DPMS guns?

bri said:

While DPMS may not be total junk, there's simply no reason, now a days, to buy one over a Colt/BCM/DD for the same price.

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I'd buy whatever brand was offering a rifle with the features that I was looking for that was asking for a fair price that did not have an established reputation for poor quality or customer service. There are brands out there that seem to think that their name and roll-mark alone is worth a 20 to 75% premium and I simply cannot see the difference other than potential resale value due to brand recognition.

Yes, every manufacturer and assembler of AR rifles can put together a lemon, but they are the exception rather than the norm in my opinion.

As for DPMS rifles being good or not, I have several in my personal collection (some built by DPMS, and some that were assembled from DPMS parts) that I am more that satisfied with.

I also have a few other AR rifles in my collection from Bushmaster, NDS, and PSA that I am quite satisfied with as well. They all are reliable and accurate for me which is all that I expect from an AR rifle.

Just for the sake of Argument. Has anyone taken a group of these from different MFG's and broken them down and really done a comparison? Measured to the .0005 ( yes I know that's close ) measured the finish thickness and checked the finish in critical areas with a surface roughness gauge. I think everyone would be surprised at how close the all are.... Use to Govt. contracting and bid the M16 25 years ago.

lloveless said:

Kwelz, I bought my DPMS LR 308 a month ago. I researched it before buying it. Where were you then. I found not one negative thing said about it on the several forums I looked through. I don't know what your problem is, but your are spitting in the wind from where I stand. Another poster said he didn't like DPMS AR's, but didn't own one Ha ha ha ha. No standing to even talk. If you have specific complaints make them. Then shut up. Thanks you very much.
ll

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About the only thing negative I can say about the LR-308 rifle line is that they are HEAVY, but built like a Sherman tank. The initial release has some teething issues with regard to reliable ejection, but DPMS was quick to make a small revision that made all the difference in the world.

Nice rifles and capable of some very good accuracy.

Don

hapidogbreath said:

Just for the sake of Argument. Has anyone taken a group of these from different MFG's and broken them down and really done a comparison? Measured to the .0005 ( yes I know that's close ) measured the finish thickness and checked the finish in critical areas with a surface roughness gauge. I think everyone would be surprised at how close the all are.... Use to Govt. contracting and bid the M16 25 years ago.

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If someone were to do that, I think that they would be very surprised to find that the individual parts would be incredibly similar, almost like they all came from the exact same source.......

Don

lloveless said:

Kwelz, I bought my DPMS LR 308 a month ago. I researched it before buying it. Where were you then. I found not one negative thing said about it on the several forums I looked through. I don't know what your problem is, but your are spitting in the wind from where I stand. Another poster said he didn't like DPMS AR's, but didn't own one Ha ha ha ha. No standing to even talk. If you have specific complaints make them. Then shut up. Thanks you very much.
ll

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Really? Telling someone to shut up? Are you 12?
If you didn't find any complaints then you didn't do much research. I have owned a number of them. Each was a lesson learned and a waste of money. I also used to sell them and that was more than enough experience to make sure I warn everyone else about the problems that can come from them.

Specific problems I have had on personally owned guns"

• 2 Out of spec chambers
• A broken FSB
• Various broken/out of spec small parts

Problems I have seen 1st hand:

• Cracked lowers from the factory
• Broken Bolt parts
• Brand new gun with no Post in the FSB
• Under and oversized holes for the takedown pins.

Problems I had customer complaints on:

• Plastic Parts broken in shipping (Stock HGs ect).
• A gun with no safety detent or spring.
• Various Out of spec parts.

None of this even factors in the various lower quality materials they use, the lack of Chrome lining or M4 feedramps on stock guns, etc.

Kwelz and I have had our differences and still do, but to tell someone to Shut Up is out of line. Everyone is going to have an opinion on a middle of the road manufacturer. All companies have problems. Will DMPS take care of your problem, yes. Will Colt have issues, Yes. Do you need a Colt to plink with? No. Should you run a DMPS as an Operator (Military,Police), No.

chad1043 said:

Kwelz and I have had our differences and still do, but to tell someone to Shut Up is out of line. Everyone is going to have an opinion on a middle of the road manufacturer. All companies have problems. Will DMPS take care of your problem, yes. Will Colt have issues, Yes. Do you need a Colt to plink with? No. Should you run a DMPS as an Operator (Military,Police), No.

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Oh just shut up you whiner.

Go back to your M4Carbine Hole...

Since we're working off anecdotal evidence here, I've known several friends with DPMS 5.56mm rifles. All of them had issues handling anything beyond slow plinking. Most of the issues involved FTFs or FTEs when shooting a lot of ammo. DPMS guns are more susceptible to this than, say, Colts or LMTs because of a few shortcuts they use to keep the price down. These shortcuts can include: improperly-cut 5.56mm NATO chambers (often too tight), low-quality extractor springs, semi-auto rather than heavier full-auto BCGs, improperly-spec'd gas ports, use of a lighter rather than heavier buffer spring. A more serious concern if you plan to do high volume shooting is the construction of the bolt itself. DPMS uses a lower-quality steel than required by the milspec, which increases likelihood of the bolt breaking under stress.

DPMS isn't complete junk. The guns work fine for casual range time, and they come in all sorts of configurations and chamberings. Some of their more specialized models would be good for hunting and varminting, for example. I wouldn't recommend the 5.56mm guns for defensive use, though, due to the issues noted above. If you're gonna use it as a range toy then don't worry about it as much.

kwelz said:

Really? Telling someone to shut up? Are you 12?
If you didn't find any complaints then you didn't do much research. I have owned a number of them. Each was a lesson learned and a waste of money. I also used to sell them and that was more than enough experience to make sure I warn everyone else about the problems that can come from them.

Specific problems I have had on personally owned guns"

• 2 Out of spec chambers
• A broken FSB
• Various broken/out of spec small parts

Problems I have seen 1st hand:

• Cracked lowers from the factory
• Broken Bolt parts
• Brand new gun with no Post in the FSB
• Under and oversized holes for the takedown pins.

Problems I had customer complaints on:

• Plastic Parts broken in shipping (Stock HGs ect).
• A gun with no safety detent or spring.
• Various Out of spec parts.

None of this even factors in the various lower quality materials they use, the lack of Chrome lining or M4 feedramps on stock guns, etc.

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What I don't understand is that if you have owned a number of DPMS rifles, why would you keep buying them in the first place. Your story sounds like BS... DPMS is the 2nd largest AR manufacturer so of course you are going to have a few more problems with that many out there... and I agree with the other poster above, screw M4carbine.com...
And as far as not selling them anymore, of course you don't get the profit out of them that you do with the over priced AR's you no doubt do sell....

Maybe I got lucky with my DPMS, but I have a few thousand rounds down the pipe and not a single prob yet. I have not been easy on it either. No Wolf ammo, but all NATO MiL SURP and I have done some extended shooting sessions where I was really dumping rounds. Still no probs.

I am not about to go to Somalia or the 'Stan with it, but I like it and feel comfortable that should it ever hit the fan, I have at least something to protect my family with. Of course I have a M1A as well

Wow first I am told to shut up now I am called a liar.
A few things.
1: I kept buying because I didn't know better. I believed the BS about the number of problems being because of how many they make.

2: you are pretty ignorant of how gun retail works. My margin on DPMS, and RRA was higher than it was in Colt or LMT. I got out of the business years ago.

3: I have photographic evidence of many of the above problems. Are you still going to call BS and say I photoshopped them

4: the return rate per 100 was far higher on DPMS than any other brand.

Settle, settle boys.

If its any consolation, the only DPMS I owned was a Prairie Panther. Very accurate and quite sharp looking. It was very reliable.

Sold it to buy an M&P 15 AND a CZ75. Fair trade.

I love reading all these post. It seems that any discussion about an AR will get people turning on each other quicker than anything, especially on some other forums. I haven't noticed this kind of behavior when discussing a Rossi lever action. Seems that whenever the subject of AR's comes up, all the 'professionals' come to make a comment. I love it.

kenken

QUOTE from kenken: "I love reading all these post. It seems that any discussion about an AR will get people turning on each other quicker than anything, especially on some other forums. I haven't noticed this kind of behavior when discussing a Rossi lever action. Seems that whenever the subject of AR's comes up, all the 'professionals' come to make a comment. I love it."


It's not professionals arguing, it's the Fanboys showing brand loyalty of some sort.

An AR is an AR in my opinion.

If someone want's my opinion on which one is the WORST AR, I'd have to say it was the Colt M16A2 that had an upper receiver failure on the range at Ft. Knox KY when I was in AIT there in 1987.

Other than that, I've had no problems with any AR since. It's a good platform in my opinion.

Don

It's unfortunate that AR-related threads often turn into finger-pointing. ARs are not cheap purchases. If someone posts on THR asking whether a certain gun is worth their $700-1400 of hard-earned money, that person deserves a honest, fact-based answer. If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd rather have good feedback from peope who know the AR platform than be disappointed down the road. The specs that various manufacturers use are just that - facts. How much those facts matter depends on how the OP intends to use the gun.

Nobody, or at least very few of us, are saying that DPMS guns are total crap and never worth purchasing. What some of us are saying is that a DPMS may not be the best choice based on 1.) intended use, and 2.) value for dollar.

ARs can be used for casual plinking, competition, big game, small game, varminting, long-range target shooting, home defense, law enforcement, defensive training, etc etc. The best gun for one use may not be the best for another. The issues brought up in this thread - bolt and barrel construction, QC testing, bolt specs, feed ramps, et. al. - won't matter that much for plinking. Any half-decent AR will go bang under those circumstances almost every time. Those issues matter more in defensive/LE use, where the stakes are much higher, or in situations where the shooter expends lots of ammo in one sitting.

On the other hand, value for dollar matters regardless of intended use. I've thought about buying one of DPMS's AR10-pattern guns in the past because they offer great bang for buck - buying a signficantly better gun requires some serious cash. The 5.56mm DPMS guns (particularly the more defensive-oriented ones) are less of a value since you can buy higher-quality competitors for equal or slightly higher cost. An Audi A6 is a better car than a Honda Accord, but it costs twice as much. The problem with DPMS is that you can buy the equivalent of an Audi for 10-20% more $$$ rather than 100% more. There's no reason gun guys can't be smart with our money. Brand loyalty shouldn't replace wise purchasing decisions.

I own a DPMS AR. No problems to speak of and as accurate as I am. Maybe 2500 rounds through it and I dont recall a single FTF. 95% of the rounds have been Tula or some other imported cheap ammo and EVERY can or piece of paper I have shot has died right there.
I added a cheap drop in .22 conversion kit and have shot it more than the .223. No problems on that end either. After shooting the .22 I drop the .223 back in and fire a mag through the gun.

justice06rr said:

I'm not fond of the DPMS line of AR rifles. i've never owned them, but personally i'd go for a higher quality rifle like S&W, Colt, or BCM.

its an ok rifle if you are just doing some plinking and punching paper.

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So you have never owned one but are not fond of them?

Thanks for the opinion! It carries a lot of weight.

My LR-308b is more accurate than my Remington 700!

The cheapest DPMS I can find anywhere is this Panther Sportical (their most stripped-down model with no iron sights or optics or anything) for $593.00 shipped: http://grabagun.com/dpms-panther-sportical-556x45-16.html

So tell me why anyone should buy that when you can get this S&W AR for $600 shipped, which actually comes with iron sights, as well as a melonite treated barrel which will last 2-3 times longer than the DPMS' one, and 1/8 rifling, which lets you shoot the heavier bullets with no problem, and S&W's excellent warranty: http://gunbuyer.com/s-and-w-m-and-p-15-sport-811036-5.56-16-blk-w-30rd-mag.html

Or this Palmetto State Armory rifle kit for $539.95 shipped plus the cost of a stripped lower ($75-80 if you shop around), which gives you an all mil-spec rifle... chrome lined 1/7 barrel, MPI/HPT barrel and bolt, the works... plus it's got mid-length gas instead of carbine, which is better for 16" barrels.

If DPMS wants to stay relevant in this market, they need to lower their prices if they want to sell low-end rifles, or start offering better features and QC if they want to keep charging what they are.

henschman said:

The cheapest DPMS I can find anywhere is this Panther Sportical (their most stripped-down model with no iron sights or optics or anything) for $593.00 shipped: http://grabagun.com/dpms-panther-sportical-556x45-16.html

So tell me why anyone should buy that when you can get this S&W AR for $600 shipped, which actually comes with iron sights, as well as a melonite treated barrel which will last 2-3 times longer than the DPMS' one, and 1/8 rifling, which lets you shoot the heavier bullets with no problem, and S&W's excellent warranty: http://gunbuyer.com/s-and-w-m-and-p-15-sport-811036-5.56-16-blk-w-30rd-mag.html

Or this Palmetto State Armory rifle kit for $539.95 shipped plus the cost of a stripped lower ($75-80 if you shop around), which gives you an all mil-spec rifle... chrome lined 1/7 barrel, MPI/HPT barrel and bolt, the works... plus it's got mid-length gas instead of carbine, which is better for 16" barrels.

If DPMS wants to stay relevant in this market, they need to lower their prices if they want to sell low-end rifles, or start offering better features and QC if they want to keep charging what they are.

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You should purchase whatever brand AR that fits your selection and cost criteria.

If it's a DPMS, buy it.

If it's a S&W, buy it

If it's a PSA, buy it.

That pretty much sums it up.

I have a thousand rounds through my DPMS LR-308 and no issues. Its a good AR for the money IMO.

Yeah, their LR-308s are a totally different story. I might end up going with one of their .260s myself.

Well good... debate settled. DPMS are considered good guns by the majority... in every thread this comes up in there are one or two vocal anti DPMS forum members who have had multiple bad experiences and dozens of folks who like theirs just fine... as for me... 6 years on the on the sporticle and a little over a year on the oracle neither have ever given me a problem and I use them hard.

RCArms.com said:

You should purchase whatever brand AR that fits your selection and cost criteria.

If it's a DPMS, buy it.

If it's a S&W, buy it

If it's a PSA, buy it.

That pretty much sums it up.

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I would modify that to say "you should purchase the AR that gives you the most for your money, within your selection and cost criteria."

If you persist in buying a rifle with less features for your money out of brand loyalty, then I guess that's your business.

henschman said:

I would modify that to say "you should purchase the AR that gives you the most for your money, within your selection and cost criteria."

If you persist in buying a rifle with less features for your money out of brand loyalty, then I guess that's your business.

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Noted and you are 100% correct, however my reply was specific to the three examples you mentioned.

I have several AR rifles in my collection and really have no favorites or brand loyalty. All work as expected in their intended purposes and other than a fractured hammer pin, I've had no issues with any of them.

Don