Deer rifle. 243 vs 30-30

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Kachok said:
To me the biggest advantage to a good 30-30 is not the ballistics but the fact that it is such a compact handy rifle, often a full 4" shorter then many featherweight bolt action rifles, that makes a big difference when traversing brush so thick you have to crawl through it.
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+1, and well said. The appeal, methinks, is a carbine design with a tried and true action. However, as has been discussed, the platform is not the discussion as a whole.

They both have shortcomings as well as offerings to those that use them. The 30-30, Leverevolution or not, isn't going to best or even equal the .243 in distance, but trumps it in energy at shorter ranges. Lot of lead can be slammed into a bonehead at 200 yards or less with the 30-30. Need more range? .243 is your answer. But I'd opt for a do all, end all cartridge for both. Jack of all trades, if you will.

7/08
.260 rem
.270
6x55 swede (just for you, Kachok! But seriously, I've shot it, good round)
.308

Some give all, some will suck. It's up to you and your application to find happy ground.
 
The one thing I haven't heard in this thread about the .30-30, or more accurately about the lever action is=not that it's handy for brush, but an experienced rifleman can perform a reasonable semblance of, under duress, rapid fire with them.

As the bolt action/.243 fans have made abundantly clear the antiquated .30-30 is not superior to the .243. Because the .243 lives in a bolt action, and historically the .30-30 in a lever, choose the action for the application. If you let me set the terms, I will at my advanced age outshoot a bolt .243 with my Marlin 336 anytime you want.

That dear friends is the argument.
 
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rswartsell said:
The one thing I haven't heard in this thread about the .30-30, or more accurately about the lever action is=not that it's handy for brush, but an experienced rifleman can perform a reasonable semblance of, uner duress, rapid fire with them.

As the bolt action/.243 fans have made abundantly clear the antiquated .30-30 is not superior to the .243. Because the .243 lives in a bolt action, and historically the .30-30 in a lever, choose the action for the application. If you let me set the terms, I will at my advanced age outshoot a bolt .243 with my Marlin 336 anytime you want.

That dear friends is the argument.
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Dang. That hasn't been discussed. Good addition sir.
 
I know when I hear rapid fire at our DEER camp it usually means somebody is making some bad shots.
 
Whether you have any use for it, or whether you have any agreement with it, it is what it is. The inherent advantage of the lever .30-30 would be rapid fire. If you don't contemplate being surrounded by Comanche, or defending home against 10 or more zombies, maybe you are a Savage .243 guy.

Remember this though, in the brushy country the lever .30-30 has been taking deer for somewhere near 100 years, it ain't gonna quit now.
 
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I'd get a .270. The harder part will be getting drawn for a hunt in Arizona. It's not like Oklahoma I can tell you that.
 
I'd get a .270. The harder part will be getting drawn for a hunt in Arizona. It's not like Oklahoma I can tell you that.
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man that sounds rough. around here all i have to do is walk into the bait shot and tell them how many tags i need. then if they get filled, i just go back and get a few more.

BTW, good decision on the .270. that should serve you well!
 
Tag? What's a tag? We can legally kill 2 deer every day from October 15th through January 31st though only 3 can be antlered. I will let you know when I take my 112 or however many it comes to next year. No tags.
 
I'd get a .270. The harder part will be getting drawn for a hunt in Arizona. It's not like Oklahoma I can tell you that.
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what state is that? sounds like fun!:D
 
Some of the .243's I've handled don't seem to give up much in the way of handling to the 30-30.
And for brush hunting, you can't actually shoot through brush and make reliable hits. Even the smallest twig can cause a bullet to become unstable and end up in orbit somewhere - or to go wild and wound a game animal. To make a humane and reliable shot, you'd be best off to pick out a hole in the brush and thread your bullet through it to a vital area.
Choose the rifle you think you can do that best with.

I've never owned a .243 but given what it can do, I may find one when I pick up another deer rifle.
 
goon,

Did you ever own and fire extensively a lever action (at relatively short distances)?

I'm not going to say it's impossible, what with Lee Harvey Oswald making world record time with a Mannlicher Carcano, but bolts are just plain slower and designed for distance and precision. Period.
 
If you are mistaking sloving a mathematical equation for energy by thinking E= MC2, then you are right, velocity is the part that is squared. However if you are correctly solving for momentum or inertia then weight or mass gets the nod. (regarding resisitance to deflection). A small twig will NOT deflect a 700 Nitro bullet on it's way to a Juarassic Park II T-Rex into the stratosphere as you suggest. It will have less effect on a typical .30-30 than it will a typical .243.
 
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True but they ALL suck going through the brush even the 700 nitro and 12 guage slugs. Which one sucks less is not much of an argument.
Energy figures are great and all but they are a LONG way from telling the whole story. I will take a 170gr .30 cal over an 85gr 243 anyday even with 20-30% less energy. Ft-lbs of energy is the potential work done by your projectile, but high speed projectiles tend to expend more of that energy on a more confined area where as the heavier slower projectile tends to make more consistent wounding damage throughout the wound tract, I have shown many examples of this on this forum. A 243s damage is laughable compared to that of a 405gr .458 cal of the same energy.
 
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rswartsell said:
If you are mistaking sloving a mathematical equation for energy by thinking E= MC2, then you are right, velocity is the part that is squared. However if you are correctly solving for momentum or inertia then weight or mass gets the nod. (regarding resisitance to deflection). A small twig will NOT deflect a 700 Nitro bullet on it's way to a Juarassic Park II T-Rex into the stratosphere as you suggest. It will have less effect on a typical .30-30 than it will a typical .243.
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Mass is the space with which an object and/or matter occupies. You are referring to density, sir. Please, do not sleep in physics.

Kachok, we agree. Inch or a mile, if you miss your target, you still suck. End of story.
 
Rectitude in minutia do not a practical argument make. Degrees at relatively short distances can be everything (or nothing). Cumulative wisdom suggests heavy relatively slower bullets in short distance brush are superior strategy. If you guys can prove it wrong, knock yourselves out, and we will stand in awe of generations of wisdom overturned.
 
Sure it deflects less, but I for one never take a shot on a deer through any kind of brush no matter what I am shooting. Not being able to clearly visually ID your target is unsafe and unethical IMHO If I cannot get a clean shot I let that one walk, I'll get him next time.
 
How so? All I said was I don't shoot anything through thick brush, I think it is unsafe so to me which one deflected less matters little. More of a statement then an argument don't you think? That is the way I meant it anyway.
 
You were arguing the physics of the "heavy bullet brush" equation, then switched to the "four rules argument" by introducing the inability to identify target. Never presented until you did. Lots and lots of game effectively identified in brush by lots and lots of hunters.
 
rswartsell said:
You were arguing the physics of the "heavy bullet brush" equation, then switched to the "four rules argument" by introducing the inability to identify target. Never presented until you did. Lots and lots of game effectively identified in brush by lots and lots of hunters.
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Well if you can clearly identify your target and have clear line of sight to the kill zone then you are not shooting through that heavy brush now are you? That is a given I did not change anything. You are right on the physics sure, I never said anything to the contrary, in fact I fully agree with you there, but the application of which I have reservations against.
 
Good enough, you have every right to do so. But for those with no choice (but to hunt in brush, sometimes thick) it is safely and effectively done constantly and they MIGHT choose the .30-30 for that reason. Though granted the differences may be subtle.

Well played sir, hail good fellow well met.
 
porktornado said:
this is a pretty easy answer. for those of you saying the 30-30 has the edge with 200 and closer...why? would a .243 not kill a deer closer than 200 yards? no, it would make it just as dead as the 30-30 would, but it would get to the deer about 1000 fps faster. so with that in mind, if you want to limit yourself to 150ish yard shots with the 30-30, go for it. if you want to kill a deer anywhere from 10-400+ yards, .243 is your choice. if you get a 3x9 or 4x12 it would do just fine at close ranges as well as any other range. check out a ballistics table for both, they do not lie. i have personally seen a 100gr SP kill a 8'6" brown bear at 150 yards and he made it about 20-30 yards. the bullet was found laying up against the hide on the opposite side. now thats penetration! go .243 and don't look back, you will have a rifle that will take anything from rabbits to elk.
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The 30-30 certainly has better penetrating power. Suppose you had a quartering towards shot and you couldnt wait on a better shot. You have to put it through the shoulder. If the 243 gets deflected you may not have an immediately lethal shot. I've seen where a shotgun slug was used on a cow at point blank range and it got deflected up and away from the organs for a less than lethal result. Suppose it could happen with any caliber though...
 
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