Red Cent
Member
I have the normal stuff. 7s, 6s, 308, 243,....... If I wanted an inexpensive bolt action that is reasonably accurate, moderate recoil, accessible and relatively cheap ammo, what would I get? A 6.5 really appeals to me.
C & R rifle
- Thread starter Red Cent
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adelbridge
Member
curio & relic? If so anything before 1962
Red Cent
Member
Hey, you guys give up quick.
You know, something smaller than the 7.62X54R. I heard those things hurt. I am a prolific reloader and need something. All my handguns, rifles, and shotgun are either cowboy or relatively modern. I usually spend an enormous amount of time researching but I thought I could save some time giving you guys some criteria.
I see the $99.50 ( or thereabout ) bolt actions at Gander Mountain as I walk by. I am not sure I want to pull the trigger on something like that but what do I know.
I read Garry James' reviews on old guns but the specifics do not remain. I have never been really interested until now.
SO. What is out there in a 6.5? I get stuck on the 6.5 because of the inate accuracy of the bullet. Now I need a rifle. Throw out the possibilities so I can research specifics.
You know, something smaller than the 7.62X54R. I heard those things hurt. I am a prolific reloader and need something. All my handguns, rifles, and shotgun are either cowboy or relatively modern. I usually spend an enormous amount of time researching but I thought I could save some time giving you guys some criteria.
I see the $99.50 ( or thereabout ) bolt actions at Gander Mountain as I walk by. I am not sure I want to pull the trigger on something like that but what do I know.
I read Garry James' reviews on old guns but the specifics do not remain. I have never been really interested until now.
SO. What is out there in a 6.5? I get stuck on the 6.5 because of the inate accuracy of the bullet. Now I need a rifle. Throw out the possibilities so I can research specifics.
Red Cent
Member
I guess the 6.5 Carcano is out.
Have no fear!...
I assure you that the 7.62x54R does not 'hurt'. I'm 5'-5" and weigh 190 lbs. My Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 is actually fun to shoot and the recoil is more of a 'push' than a hard 'kick'. Besides, you said you have 7's and a .308? Look up Chuck Hawks recoil table and you'll see that the 7.62x54R has less recoil than the .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester! Also, the 203 grain soft-point ammo I shoot has a ballistic coefficient of .333 and a sectional density of .303. The rifle/cartridge accuracy is good and penetration is above average. Don
't believe everything you hear! My gunsmith told me that the Mosin 'kicks like a mule' - he couldn't have been more wrong. I bought my Mosin-Nagant in 2010 for $89.95 online. It is completely dependable and rugged. Where else will you find that power in a centerfire rifle for that price?! It's the best bargain in firearms today.
I assure you that the 7.62x54R does not 'hurt'. I'm 5'-5" and weigh 190 lbs. My Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 is actually fun to shoot and the recoil is more of a 'push' than a hard 'kick'. Besides, you said you have 7's and a .308? Look up Chuck Hawks recoil table and you'll see that the 7.62x54R has less recoil than the .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester! Also, the 203 grain soft-point ammo I shoot has a ballistic coefficient of .333 and a sectional density of .303. The rifle/cartridge accuracy is good and penetration is above average. Don
't believe everything you hear! My gunsmith told me that the Mosin 'kicks like a mule' - he couldn't have been more wrong. I bought my Mosin-Nagant in 2010 for $89.95 online. It is completely dependable and rugged. Where else will you find that power in a centerfire rifle for that price?! It's the best bargain in firearms today.
Red October
Member
The shorter Mosins push a little harder than the 91/30s (the cheapest ones). Unless they have been sportered, they have metal butt plates, which doesn't help. These are about the least expensive entry into C&R.
In 6.5x55, your options are pretty much:
- a Swedish Mauser (several different models here)
- an AG-42 Ljungman, which won't be cheap
- a Norwegian Krag (I like these, but they are the weakest action of the bunch)
There may be others, but these are the 6.5s that I know about
In 6.5x55, your options are pretty much:
- a Swedish Mauser (several different models here)
- an AG-42 Ljungman, which won't be cheap
- a Norwegian Krag (I like these, but they are the weakest action of the bunch)
There may be others, but these are the 6.5s that I know about
Red Cent
Member
I hear you gBeecher. Filed away for reference. I won't be hunting with it. Got old and cannot pull the trigger on deeror the other animals. Done the mule deer, white tail, hog, etc.
I compete with firearms almost every weekend.. Some of us have been talking about doing it with old bolt actions. And I started looking.
I compete with firearms almost every weekend.. Some of us have been talking about doing it with old bolt actions. And I started looking.
Red Cent
Member
Red October, I just looked at this. I probably won't buy this one, but if I should want one, is it accurate enough to hit a beer can at a 100 yards, consistently? Maybe better with handloads?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297905399
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297905399
Choctaw
Member
What about a Lee Enfield in one of its many variations? The actions are slick and 303 is a pleasure to shoot.
NCsmitty
Member
The Swedish Mauser that you referenced at gunbroker should be a great shooter, and the 6.5x55 round is easy to load and shoot. There is little milsurp ammo available but components are readily available, and usually the Swedish Mausers are very accurate. They are a quality rifle, and usually bring around $300, give or take.
Drilling and tapping for scope mounts detract from it's historical value, but that's a choice you would have to make.
NCsmitty
Drilling and tapping for scope mounts detract from it's historical value, but that's a choice you would have to make.
NCsmitty
hirundo82
Member
Since you are a reloader, why not look at the Swiss K31. You can still find them for around $300, and it is tough to think of much more accurate surplus rifles. Surplus ammo isn't cheap, but reloadable brass is available from most of the usual sources and it uses .308 caliber bullets (so available in any flavor you can think of).
Red Cent,
You can't have everything you want in your post (6.5 + cheap ammo) but you have some nice options.
The last real bargain in C&R rifles are the Russian Mosin Nagant 91-30s. These are full sized rifles that fire a full power 7.62x54R. Both the rifle and the surplus ammo can still be found cheap.
You should easily be able to find the rifle and a tin of 440 rounds of surplus ammo for $200 or less. The ammo is corrosive but is no big deal as long as you are aware of it and you are willing to spend an extra 5-10 minutes after shooting to flush the barrel of the corrosive salts.
Does it have more recoil than a .22LR? Sure, but with a slip on rubber butt pad it's very managable IMO. Standing it's very comfortable with no discomfort for me. Shooting off a bench or prone you'll feel more of a push but it's not painful with the slip on recoil pad.
Now I love 6.5 as well and in C&R your best option as mentioned above is a Swedish Mauser. The M96 is the more common variety, it's a full length rifle. This rifle will be an upgrade in quality and likely accuracy compared to a Mosin Nagant. The price reflects this...plan on $300-400 for a decent example. No cheap surplus so you'll want to reload this one.
Recoil on the 6.5x55 is noticeably less than 7.62x54R (especially in off the shelf 6.5x55 ammo because it's considered by most to be a bit downloaded compared to the original military ammo). The M96 is not considered as robust as the K98 Mausers so you can't load them up too hot.
But I would only buy either of these two rifles you want them because your interested in a military rifle.
If you just want a cheap rifle the 91-30 qualifies.
If you just want something in 6.5 there are some modern sporter style rifles made by a few of the big names in 6.5 chamberings.
You can't have everything you want in your post (6.5 + cheap ammo) but you have some nice options.
The last real bargain in C&R rifles are the Russian Mosin Nagant 91-30s. These are full sized rifles that fire a full power 7.62x54R. Both the rifle and the surplus ammo can still be found cheap.
You should easily be able to find the rifle and a tin of 440 rounds of surplus ammo for $200 or less. The ammo is corrosive but is no big deal as long as you are aware of it and you are willing to spend an extra 5-10 minutes after shooting to flush the barrel of the corrosive salts.
Does it have more recoil than a .22LR? Sure, but with a slip on rubber butt pad it's very managable IMO. Standing it's very comfortable with no discomfort for me. Shooting off a bench or prone you'll feel more of a push but it's not painful with the slip on recoil pad.
Now I love 6.5 as well and in C&R your best option as mentioned above is a Swedish Mauser. The M96 is the more common variety, it's a full length rifle. This rifle will be an upgrade in quality and likely accuracy compared to a Mosin Nagant. The price reflects this...plan on $300-400 for a decent example. No cheap surplus so you'll want to reload this one.
Recoil on the 6.5x55 is noticeably less than 7.62x54R (especially in off the shelf 6.5x55 ammo because it's considered by most to be a bit downloaded compared to the original military ammo). The M96 is not considered as robust as the K98 Mausers so you can't load them up too hot.
But I would only buy either of these two rifles you want them because your interested in a military rifle.
If you just want a cheap rifle the 91-30 qualifies.
If you just want something in 6.5 there are some modern sporter style rifles made by a few of the big names in 6.5 chamberings.
firesky101
Member
I know it is not a 6.5 but a whole lot of people love their K31's. Very good quality and accuracy even with milsurp (I should say especially with milsurp).
Red October wins the understatement award for this thread. First time I fired my Mosin carbine, my buddy was standing beside and behind me. I turned and looked at him after pulling the trigger and he rolled his eyes (after putting them back in his head). He explained that he felt the heat and concussion on his face before deciding that he wasn't interested in shooting it after-all.
Red Cent
Member
Dr 2 B, that is the type of stories I get around here. Maybe they are not holding them correctly. I can tell you my memory tells me that the worst kicking rifle ws a sporterized 03.
When I started cowboy, there were "sidematches" at the big shoots that included Long Range Rifle Caliber. Most used the 45/70 in single shot or lever (two different classes). Some used the other hyphenated calibers including the 45-110. Lordy.
My research disclosed a round which fit my bill. The 38-55. I picked up a nice 336 CB 26" barrel, put a tang sight on it with a globe front that had a single half post. Did a polish job, worked on the trigger and it is a very nice shooting rifle. 10 grs of Unique, a 245gr lead RNFP .380" bullet will do (with a scope) 1/2" at 50 yards. Only place I could shoot at the time. A sweet round that will do super up to about 600 yards with stronger loads.
Thats why the 6.5 is appealing. We shoot offhand and off sticks. The Swedish Mauser looks to be rather svelte and made for offhand shooting as well as off sticks. And I won't develop a flinch that will inhibit follow through.
I suppose the action and trigger can be smoothed out, lightened, and be made to be somewhat competitive?
When I started cowboy, there were "sidematches" at the big shoots that included Long Range Rifle Caliber. Most used the 45/70 in single shot or lever (two different classes). Some used the other hyphenated calibers including the 45-110. Lordy.
My research disclosed a round which fit my bill. The 38-55. I picked up a nice 336 CB 26" barrel, put a tang sight on it with a globe front that had a single half post. Did a polish job, worked on the trigger and it is a very nice shooting rifle. 10 grs of Unique, a 245gr lead RNFP .380" bullet will do (with a scope) 1/2" at 50 yards. Only place I could shoot at the time. A sweet round that will do super up to about 600 yards with stronger loads.
Thats why the 6.5 is appealing. We shoot offhand and off sticks. The Swedish Mauser looks to be rather svelte and made for offhand shooting as well as off sticks. And I won't develop a flinch that will inhibit follow through.
I suppose the action and trigger can be smoothed out, lightened, and be made to be somewhat competitive?
Red Cent
Member
Dentite, I want something different. I built a 6MM Remington with a Savage action and a Douglas barrel.
I built a 243 on an 03 action and a Douglas barrel. The 7MM Mag is an Argentine MKX Mauser with a Douglas barrel. Aand a few others. Used to live within a couple of miles from Douglas Barrels, Inc. and know Tim Gardner. (throwing around names)
Has to be a "military" rifle.
In the latter 70s I put together a 7 X 57 for friend. I would consider this round also.
I think I would rather soothe the 6.5 itch first. Then...............
I built a 243 on an 03 action and a Douglas barrel. The 7MM Mag is an Argentine MKX Mauser with a Douglas barrel. Aand a few others. Used to live within a couple of miles from Douglas Barrels, Inc. and know Tim Gardner. (throwing around names
)Has to be a "military" rifle.
In the latter 70s I put together a 7 X 57 for friend. I would consider this round also.
I think I would rather soothe the 6.5 itch first. Then...............
meanmrmustard
Member
I happen to be one of them. I second this suggestion.
I have shot both the carbine and the 91/30 and when you are back behind the rifle it seems a lot worse than when you are on the trigger. I didn't realize how it sounded till I let my buddy shoot it and it was louder when I wasn't on the trigger. Sure it kicks, but I think some make it out to be worse than it is.
Red Cent
Member
What about an 1895 Spanish Mauser carbine? 7 x 57. I like the full stock look. Seems to run around $400.00. Action should be typical Mauser. Control feed? 5 round box mag.
Or the Swedish M94 carbine. 6.5X 55.
Or the Swedish M94 carbine. 6.5X 55.
KDS
Member
K31 would be my suggestion. I love mine.
In that case I think you would enjoy an M96 Swedish Mauser. Do some research on what to look for, how to interpret the stock disk, etc. I have an 1899 Carl Gustafs that I really enjoy shooting. They are zeroed to 300 yards so if you are going to shoot at 100 yards there are taller front sights available. Good luck and if you get one post some pics!
Red Cent
Member
Interesting note on the Mas 36.
"Probably the most noticeable feature of the MAS-36 is the lack of any manual safety - rifle was supposed to be carried with empty magazine, and loaded only before the actual combat."
Can the rifle be fired with the bolt open a little or almost all the way? I would think they. at least, had some kind of device to prevent firing.
Interesting rifle. With what modern round would this compare? I cannot find the specs.
"Probably the most noticeable feature of the MAS-36 is the lack of any manual safety - rifle was supposed to be carried with empty magazine, and loaded only before the actual combat."
Can the rifle be fired with the bolt open a little or almost all the way? I would think they. at least, had some kind of device to prevent firing.
Interesting rifle. With what modern round would this compare? I cannot find the specs.
kBob
Member
The 7.5 French is comparable to the .308 or 7.62 NATO. mil surplus Ammo is not easy to find ( if anyone thinks it is please PM me with the specifics.) and when you can find boxer ammo it is on the steep side.
The butt stock and pull length are a bit short for six footers.
The sights are not adjustable except for range. That is range not elevation. I do like that the rear sights are peep aperature on top of the rear reciever ring.
That said the only ones I have had experience with were fairly accurate with some ammo. I have found Syrian ammo that shot better than French and Syrain ammo that produced hang fires, no fires and shot gun like groups. And have had French ammo that had hangfires....one about four seconds long.
One the other hand I lucked out at found some French Military on stripper clips years ago that I came in second at a pre 1945 made rifle shoot using the CMP 100 yard course against about two dozen shooters....just lucky with that batch of ammo.
Between a Swede and a Frog I would pick the Swede....every time unless I was just going for weirdness.
The humorous thing was I had a guy tell me the marks on the rear of the bolt of an MAS36 were to indicate how to work the safety much like the safety on a Japanese type 99. I guess turning to that other mark would make the rifle safe.....it is how one removes the firing pin.
The Swedes are just super well made and nicely finished by comparisson. Do look around here , maybe search for "disc" as a few years back there was a considerable following for Swedes here and what the markings meant was well discussed.
The threading on the end of the barrel was to allow a blank firing device to be used that allowed the use of wooden bulleted blanks without killing other trainees and there are after market thread protectors out there. The sights on the Swede are drift adjustable for windage up front and there are atleast three types of tangent rear sight for them. Biggest complaint is that the front post is a fine pointed chisel and the rear notch is a fine v shape even more so than most 98 Mausers.
Of the non US rifles meantioned so far on this thread I would take the Swedes hands down if cost were not an issue.
-k Bob
The butt stock and pull length are a bit short for six footers.
The sights are not adjustable except for range. That is range not elevation. I do like that the rear sights are peep aperature on top of the rear reciever ring.
That said the only ones I have had experience with were fairly accurate with some ammo. I have found Syrian ammo that shot better than French and Syrain ammo that produced hang fires, no fires and shot gun like groups. And have had French ammo that had hangfires....one about four seconds long.
One the other hand I lucked out at found some French Military on stripper clips years ago that I came in second at a pre 1945 made rifle shoot using the CMP 100 yard course against about two dozen shooters....just lucky with that batch of ammo.
Between a Swede and a Frog I would pick the Swede....every time unless I was just going for weirdness.
The humorous thing was I had a guy tell me the marks on the rear of the bolt of an MAS36 were to indicate how to work the safety much like the safety on a Japanese type 99. I guess turning to that other mark would make the rifle safe.....it is how one removes the firing pin.
The Swedes are just super well made and nicely finished by comparisson. Do look around here , maybe search for "disc" as a few years back there was a considerable following for Swedes here and what the markings meant was well discussed.
The threading on the end of the barrel was to allow a blank firing device to be used that allowed the use of wooden bulleted blanks without killing other trainees and there are after market thread protectors out there. The sights on the Swede are drift adjustable for windage up front and there are atleast three types of tangent rear sight for them. Biggest complaint is that the front post is a fine pointed chisel and the rear notch is a fine v shape even more so than most 98 Mausers.
Of the non US rifles meantioned so far on this thread I would take the Swedes hands down if cost were not an issue.
-k Bob
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