Gun owners are shooting ourselves in the foot with our kids and not locking up guns

A five year old with access to a loaded firearm,, parents should be jailed.

A five year old with access to a loaded firearm,, parents should be jailed.

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Not necessarily. A 5 year old neglected and unsupervised with a loaded firearm yes. Having a loaded firearm in the home is not reason for parents to be jailed.

I grew up in a household where every gun was loaded. My dad's rifle and shotgun were kept in the toolshed, and his pistols were kept in the house. One on a hook in the entry, and one in a dresser drawer. My brother, sister and I knew where they were, and we knew not to touch them without permission.

We were taught firearm safety while learning to walk. We also had respect for our father and knew there were certain lines that were never crossed and what the penalty for disobedience was.

My wife and I have raised three children the same way and they survived just fine. That being said we now keep all but our carry guns in a safe.

I can understand both sides of this issue, but in the end this is a decision that each family must make for themselves and their children.

In AZ we just had a 3 year old grab his Grandmother's gun killing himself when he shot himself in the face.

The Grandmother is a Meth user (PROHIBITED POSSESOR!). There is often more to the story than the gun just grew legs and.......

Unconscionable.

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Let me add one more bit of narrative so we're all talking about exactly the same thing:

When Mom left the 5-year-old and the 2-year-old alone, the gun in the room was a Crickett rifle.

That's a single-shot rifle which not only has to be loaded, but it has to be manually cocked as well before it can fire. Just closing the bolt on a live round doesn't cock the striker. Cocking the striker is not an action a 5-year-old can accomplish. It takes quite a bit of hand/finger strength to draw back that cocking piece. Keystone Sporting Arms makes this a major point in their marketing as a safety feature.

So, in that situation, some adult had to leave that rifle in a room with an unattended toddler and pre-schooler. Some adult had to LOAD that rifle (10:1 the 5 year-old couldn't have even done that himself). AND some adult had to go and deliberately cock that rifle and make it ready to fire.

This adult took every step down the path to this tragedy themselves.

Unconscionable!

I really hope that the home invaders give you time to dial the combination

I really hope that the home invaders give you time to dial the combination

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If you're relying on a single-shot .22 micro youth rifle, left cocked and propped in a corner in the care of your pre-schooler and toddler for your home defense solution?

...

Ok, so that really doesn't even need a rebuttal.


(I have kids. Every one over the age of three has enjoyed shooting and been instructed in shooting -- including AKs, handguns, etc -- since they were younger than this poor child who's now killed his sibling. I have much more powerful and appropriate firearms than this ready at a moment's notice. And yet they are safely secured from discharge by curious toddlers. It isn't hard, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp or a very challenging problem to solve. Basic parental responsibility.)

I see that I am not alone here. Grouping all firearms owners into one box, because of the lack of a few is just wrong.

I grew up with an unlocked full gun rack in the living room every day. I didn't shoot my sisters and they didn't shoot me. It was a non-issue because we were taught better than that. We also didn't drink the Drain-O under the sink, play hide'n'seek in the freezer, or try to juggle chainsaws.
My sons grew up with firearms in the house from day one. Again, it was a non-issue and they are both just fine today (30 and 39).
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With home defense such a big deal . No wonder "kids" have easy access to weapons.
You read enough forums and it seems most people with that mind set have guns just about anyplace you can think of.
It`s almost a catch 22. Lock up your weapons and the HD aspect is gone. Ready access that is.
Leave them where you can get at them in an emergency and your kids may/or may not
find them.
Parents have a problem Folks with out, no problems.

Leave them where you can get at them in an emergency and your kids may/or may not find them.

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One very good solution to that is to keep a handgun on your person. As several very competent folks have stated in the past, "Pants on, guns on"...

This is very sad. Just timing, but I bought one of those gun vault things to keep my night stand gun put up from my young uns. I had it in my armoire on the very top in the back but they are getting older and will soon be able to find those things. Best $100 I've spent lately. If nothing, peace of mind for me and it only adds a few seconds to getting it. It was plenty big for my P226 with TLR-1s, extra Streamlight and magazine. If I need more than 40 rounds to defend my home, something is seriously wrong.

When I was a kid my dad had his guns locked up in a gun safe - and it didn't take long for me to figure out that the little funny shaped key on his key chain opened it.

On the other hand..

My grandfather never locked up his guns. I knew exactly where they where and where the ammo was kept.

I knew that I could look at them any time I wanted as long as I asked and was supervised. I also knew that a horrific spanking awaited me if I touched them without permission. I never touched them without permission.

"Unless I am wearing my firearms, or holding them close-by, as in direct sight, they are locked in a vault. My ammunition is also locked away."

I'm curious, do you also lock up all the car keys when they aren't in the pocket of an adult? If not, why not?

I, and everyone I knew as a kid, had access to the car keys, knives and guns and nothing bad ever came of it.

John

I think we're missing something.
We are discussing training your child vs. locking up the firearms. The fact of the matter is, either way, it's the parents' fault when 5 year old children get loaded firearms and shoot people. You want to say it's a training issue? Fine, the parents are at fault for not training their children. You want to say it's easily accessible firearms regarding small children? Fine, it's the parents' fault for making the access so easy.
Bottom line, when a 5 year old kills someone, it's more than likely the fault of the parent.

Pockets, did you leave a loaded and cocked child's rifle out in the room when your boys were toddlers, and leave them alone to see what might happen?

When you were little, did your parents do that? Or were guns stored unloaded (at least uncocked???), at least out of sight if not in some safer area?

Of course you did not do such a thing. People knew better.

We may debate over how many layers of safety are appropriate to protect kids from the foibles of their inexperience and curiosity and lack of judgment, and we may debate how much safety we must trade for the quick access in case of a home invasion (...however constant and present a threat you honestly believe that to be in your life).

But when we absolve the parents from their responsibility here we're literally saying, this 5 year old preschool boy deserved to kill his baby sister because of his bad choices. I utterly reject any such statement. His free will to make bad choices should not be so unfettered -- no, so ENABLED -- as to be ABLE to cause instant death of another human being! He's FIVE years old. He's only two or three years away from when he couldn't yet speak in full sentences!

Alternatively, it is suggested that such things are "random accidents" that are unavoidable in life. When you place a loaded, cocked firearm in the reach of infants and preschoolers and then leave them alone with that gun -- this is not a random, unavoidable accident. Falling down the stairs is a random accident, and most good parents take some precautions against that happening when their kids are so small.

Remember, leaving this gun in this condition is exactly the same as loading a Colt SAA or Ruger Blackhawk, cocking the hammer, and then leaving it on the floor and walking away. None of us would do that if it was just US in the house. It's needlessly dangerous! Dare I say it? Criminally negligent!

We need to not fall into the trap of being so fearful of responsibility that we'd pass this off on the little kids.

When I was a kid my dad had his guns locked up in a gun safe - and it didn't take long for me to figure out that the little funny shaped key on his key chain opened it.

On the other hand..

My grandfather never locked up his guns. I knew exactly where they where and where the ammo was kept.

I knew that I could look at them any time I wanted as long as I asked and was supervised. I also knew that a horrific spanking awaited me if I touched them without permission. I never touched them without permission.

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I'm curious, do you also lock up all the car keys when they aren't in the pocket of an adult? If not, why not?

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To both of you -- loaded firearm, deliberately cocked and prepared to fire, left in the reach of an unattended pre-schooler and toddler.

THAT seems equivalent to "locked in a safe but I knew where the key was..." and "knew where the guns and ammo were kept..." etc?

A kid old enough, and strong enough, and willful enough to go locate a gun that has been stored away, locate the ammo, figure out how to load it, and cock it, and then fire and shoot someone is a far cry from two kids, just (or not even) out of diapers being left with a gun one brief tug from firing.

I really can't beleive any responsible gun owner would look at this and throw up their hands like, "Oh, there's nothing that could have been done!" Yes there was, and you damned well know it.

I, and everyone I knew as a kid, had access to the car keys, knives and guns and nothing bad ever came of it.

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Yeah? That's how I grew up as well, and I knew of two childhood fatalities from kids either finding and "playing with" guns or from otherwise poor gun-handling by kids. One boy in my elementary school shot his brother to death with their Dad's shotgun they thought was unloaded.

It DOES happen and it CAN be so easily avoided. We need to stop acting like we can't learn anything from others' mistakes.

assuming

... it works for society cause it worked for you ...

causes many accidents.

Not leaving the carkeys, medicine, herbicides, detergents, guns ... etc
laying around is parental responsibility.

Some kids will be smart. Some will toy around with things.
The more dangerous these "things" the more grave the outcome.



i am +1 with the OP.


I´d consider kids like drunk people. Not completely in charge of
their actions - .... and i wouldnt have a gun, sword or crossbow layin around
with people around who had more than 2 beers.

As Tonto once said to the Lone Ranger, "What's this 'we' buckethead?"

If my designated home defense weapon is not under my exclusive control, it is locked away; when my great grand kid is over, the guns are not available.

However, come to think of it, the housecleaning sprays and insecticides were left in the open cabinet in the kitchen, and I should put them under the sink with the brasso and drain cleaner and cable tie the doors together for duration of visits.

But quite frankly, the sort of people I know about who don't secure the guns in their home are also the kind of people who pass out after smoking "bath salts" and leave their toddlers to be reported playing in the streets unsupervised or cook meth in a house or trailer with their kids present or otherwise demonstrate that they won't follow common sense or law anyway.

I do recall that the law in Washington D.C. required that a gun in the house had to be unassembled and unloaded, even with no kids around and the gun under exclusive control of an adult, and self-defense would be punished as proof the gun was assembled and loaded.

never had to lock them up when they were kids... i do now that they are all grown up.. seems they like to borrow them...



be blessed folks

When my children were small, I kept all the guns locked in a vault except for a Colt 1911 Officers Model with a very stiff recoil spring. Their little hands did not have the strength to work the slide to load it. By the time they were able to work the slide, they were very well trained and not a worry. Even now, when our friends bring their kids over, I lock up everything that can go bang. Having an accidental shooting involving children is simply not acceptable.

When my children were small, I kept all the guns locked in a vault except for a Colt 1911 Officers Model with a very stiff recoil spring. Their little hands did not have the strength to work the slide to load it. By the time they were able to work the slide, they were very well trained and not a worry.

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Same thing here.
I had a loaded GP-100 by the bed, but when my daughter started walking, it bothered me, so I changed it out to an auto with a mag in and nothing in the chamber. Like you said, by the time she was strong enough to work the slide, it was a non issue.

I also lock away all firearms when visiting children are in the home.

Most young, mostly male, kids have an attraction to mechanical objects. I give you erector sets, Legos and Transformers as examples. I, as a kid, was fascinated by the mechanical "snick" of my Dad's single shot Winchester 67 as it was opened and closed. That said, you can still enjoy teaching your kids about the unique enjoyment of firearms WHILE teaching them firearm safety, BUT, until they are older, LOCK UP THE AMMUNITION.

I recently got into a discussion with someone about how this was bad firearm ettiquete.

She responded with how firearms manufactuers are marketing towrds kids and that is the problem.

THe discussion kind of went nowhere fast.

Sam1911 has it nailed.