The .38 Special 110gr +P+ "Treasury Load"

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Lets get in the way back time machine and go back in time when revolvers were on the hips of LEO and discuss this cartridge. Lately I've been doing a quite a bit of reading on this cartridge and have had my interest piqued by it. From what I've gathered it was devised sometime back in the late 1970's. Initially it was intended for federal LEO use, however other agencies such as CHP also used this as their issue load. The two companies that made this cartridge were Federal and Winchester, the latter actually still has it as a catalogued item. The cartridge was issued to LEO only due to the fact that this is a +P+ load and there is no SAAMI standard for +P+.

Because of the +P+ designation a lot of people seemed to think that this ammunition operated somewhere close to .357 magnum pressure levels, and as such was to only be used in .357 magnum revolvers. However here in the real world the real operating pressure of this cartridge is in the 23,500 PSI range which puts it roughy 15% above +P ammo, This is actually printed on the back of the Winchester boxes that I've seen from others that posted pictures, here is the Winchester spec sheet from Winchester's site http://winchesterle.com/Lists/CatalogAmmo/Attachments/7/RA38110HP.pdf

There was a long discussion going on on another board about this ammo and of course a lot of half truths were being flung about. That is until a couple retired LEO that used this ammo was nice enough to chime in and share their experiences. First of all no this ammo won't turn a good mechanically sound all steel revolver such as a S&W K frame into scrap metal. But I'm sure without a doubt that it will shorten the service life faster than +P ammo. Actually on the back of the Winchester product it was printed that the use of this ammo in alloy framed revolvers was verboten.

The two LEO that posted also stated that their service weapons did not show any signs of undue wear and tear from use of this ammuntion, and they did shoot a good deal of it, one of them still has his S&W M15 which he purchased from his dept. Contrary to popular belief this was not supposed to be a hot load to be used in 4"-6" barrel service weapons. Instead the intended purpose was to get roughly 1020fps from the short barrel revolvers that were being used by some of the federal agents. When fired from a 4" service revolver this ammo would net around 1100fps give +/- a few fps. So it certainly wasn't the mini magnum that many were lead to believe that it was.

This ammunition also was not meant to be used through barriers either, but rather at close quarters man to man distances. From what I've been able to find the performance of this ammo in actual use was hit and miss. In some cases it worked in others not so much. I'm not really sure why Win and Fed had to go to +P+ pressures to get the performance that this load generates. The Hornady +P Critical Defense load pretty much duplicates the performance of the "Treasury Load", Hornady claims 1090fps when used in a 4" barrel. Those that actually ran this ammo over a chronograph found that it produced anywhere from around 1077fps to around 1130fps when used in 4" barrels.

So does anyone else have any info to offer up on this old school load?
 
I'm on good terms with a retired Secret Service agent who was active back in the 70s and 80s when they carried 357 revolvers with the 38 +P+ load. I haven't had an in-depth discussion with him on the subject, but he's mentioned that the general opinion among agents at that time was that it was a good, potent round.
 
As I understand it, the Treasury, F.B.I., Chicago, St Louis was a + P 38 special 158Gr. LSWHP. Not a 110Gr. +P+ round. Can anyone confirm that there at one time was a 110Gr. +P+ Treasury load?

The only factory marked +P+ ammo I’ve seen is the Federal brand 147Gr. round.
 
As I understand it, the Treasury, F.B.I., Chicago, St Louis was a + P 38 special 158Gr. LSWHP. Not a 110Gr. +P+ round. Can anyone confirm that there at one time was a 110Gr. +P+ Treasury load?
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You're confusing a few different loads.
The Chicago Load and FBI load were the 158gr. LSWCHP.

No idea what a St. Louis load is.

And the treasury load is as the OP described.

The only factory marked +P+ ammo I’ve seen is the Federal brand 147Gr. round.
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They would be the hydrashocks.
 
I'll continue using the CorBon DPX Barnes 110gr. +P load @ 1050-269.
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I would to Water-Man, I believe that Corbon lists that velocity from a 2" barrel so that is better performance than the "Treasury Load" and without the un-needed +P+P pressure.


As I understand it, the Treasury, F.B.I., Chicago, St Louis was a + P 38 special 158Gr. LSWHP. Not a 110Gr. +P+ round. Can anyone confirm that there at one time was a 110Gr. +P+ Treasury load?

The only factory marked +P+ ammo I’ve seen is the Federal brand 147Gr. round.
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Oldbear the "Treasury Load" is in fact the the 110 +P+ ammunition that was produced by either Federal or Winchester. The 158gr SWCHP (+P) is what was used by the majority of the LEO to include the F.B.I. The Federal 147 +P+ Hydra Shok was used for a period of time as well by some federal agencies. I actually called Federal to see what the operating pressure of that load was as there was considerable talk of it over at the S&W forum. I was told that the 147gr +P+ can get up to 22,500 PSI. For more on the 147gr +P+ read here.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/111596-federal-hydra-shock-147gr-p-38-a.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/97094-anybody-still-carry-38-p-147gr-hydra-shok.html
 
A few years back I bought two boxes of top shelf self defense factory ammo that was labeled +P. I know one was Federal Hydrashock 110 gr., and the other was a 110 gr. Gold Dot, I think it was Win., maybe Speer though. But the disappointing results revealed velocities that were barely in the 1000 fps range, and no where near the high 1200's to low 1300 fps I was attaining with Hogdon +P data.

As for pressure estimates, the old stuff was measured using a method that translates pressures into units called CUP. It was a rather inaccurate method of estimating pressures, but it was all we had at the time. Copper cylindrical implements would be directly exposed to the pressures of a discharged cartridge within the chamber, through a small hole in the chamber. Measurements would be obtained prior to, and following the discharge, and would then be compared and used to calculate how much pressure was produced. Now days we use the electronic transducer, which is highly accurate and produces actual psi readings, rather than highly questionable estimates. As a result, the introduction of the transducer, a number of once thought safe reloading data, and factory reloading standards have either been up dated, or completely eliminated after discovering many once, thought to be safe pressure estimates were actually much higher than thought, some dangerously over the top. So I wouldn't take too much stock in old pressure estimates, which among other reasons, likely had much to do with the +p+ factory loads of the past being discontinued.

Regarding pressures generated by +p, or what ever maximum estimates may have been for that old 38 spcl. SD ammo of days past, a .357 mag. cartridge produces in excess 33,000 psi. So there is not even the slightest concern shooting 38 spcl. of any rating, from a .357 magnum revolver, K frame or other.

As for older 110 gr. +p+ factory Fed and Win, I got my hands on some back in the day, and it actually performed slightly better over the chrony than the current self defense +P factory offerings, but likely do to the CUP pressure estimates being much higher than thought back then.

GS
 
I wore out a Colt Agent in later 70s shooting the real Winchester 110 JHP +P+ I had left. I shot a Jamaican drug dealer who pulled a .380 on me at about 15 feet three times with that load from a 2.5" model 19 in 1975 . One was a pelvis shot that dropped him howling and the other in the leg and arm took all the fight out of him in maybe 5 seconds from when I begin the draw (I was under cover for the DEA) . The pelvis hit broke bone and tore out a section of bowel where it lodged. Upper thigh hit squirted lot of blood and went under skin on other side maybe 7" deep, it did expand. Arm was a thru hit but he dropped the gun! Note I started pulling trigger on draw with hit rising laterally like a machine gun.He was deported about 6months later in a wheel chair with a colostomy bag.
I shot many small animals with the load and out of a 6" K38 barrel you get about 1200fos velocity and the bullet fragments ususally. In the 2.5 it did just over 1000fps and 1150fps from a 4" . Recently someone I know got shot in the arm (Negligent discharge!) ranging up the shoulder and stopped by scapula, no arteries hit and he was back on the job in 2 weeks . This from a 2" agent ! About 950 FPS and I saw the retrieved bullet with not impressive expansion. I think the original Winchester +P+ pressures were about 25000 psi . The Supervel ammo was slightly hotter with a much bigger flash FWIW. All on all I stuck with the 158 LSWCHP+P since I shot the perp as I was less than impressed with the performance.
 
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Glad to hear that you made it out of that situation ok Gordon.

Gamestalker, Winchester printed the operating pressures of this load on the back of the older boxes, I don't know about the newer ones. On the older boxes it is printed as being about 23,500 CUP. According to the spec seet from the Winchester web site that a I provided a link to in my OP the spec is now 23,500 PSI, hope that helps.

Again there was considerable talk of this ammo over at the S&W forum which can be found here along with some pictures of the boxes for those interested. http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/108345-38-p-110gr-jhp-treasury-ammo-test.html

Though I find this ammuntion interesting I just can't see the justification of going to +P+ pressures when modern day +P ammo is just as good or better. Especially the Corbon +P DPX, Hornady Critical Defense, and I've heard (I hate saying that BTW) that the Corbon 110gr JHP (+P) is ferocious and will produce well over 1100fps from a 4" barrel.
 
I carried the Federal 110gr +P+ load and had no complaints. I still have 2 boxes of both the Federal and Winchester in my ammo stock I prefer the Federal to the Winchester as Federal has more of a hollow cavity. Federal in a person at close distance opens to about .612 by micrometer.

Negreteslug004.jpg

Supplement-1.jpg
 
Armsmaster270 I didn't know you were a member here, good to see you here and thanks for posting on this thread and sharing your experiences.
 
When I entered law enforcement in 1987, our issue load was Winchester's 95-grain +P Silvertip (.38 Special.) That has to be the lightest round I've ever heard of an American law enforcement agency issuing.

None of us had a lot of faith in that round. I used three of them at less than six feet to wound a wild boar enough that it then drowned in the canal into which it had jumped.
 
I started at the PD in May 1985, we were issued Smith & Wesson model 686 (no dash) and our duty ammo was the Winchester silver tip .38 +P. I'm not sure if it was a 125 grain or maybe even a 158 grain bullet but that was our duty ammo till the Department switched to the Glock 20 in the mid 90's, and then went to the Glock 22 .40 cal. There weren't too many shooting on our PD but the ones that did happen well the good guys went home and the others went to the hospital or morgue. The .38 as well as the .38 +P proved to be a sufficient cartridge. Just my thoughts from the Big Sky Country, Montana.
 
I have a couple red box Feds. Says leo only. I shot a couple out of my little Cobra and they did bark and bite, quite a bit. I carry them. The gun held up fine for the 4 or 5 that I fired.
 
I have a few boxes of those and use them in my J and K frame pistols for social work. I have only shot 5 rounds out of my 2 J frames and hit point of aim. All other plinking ammo for my snubbies is weaker. I know these stress my snubbies so it is just "going to Dallas" ammo in my snubbie as a back up to my .45.

I live way outside Dallas and sometimes get turned around and have found myself in areas I'm not sure the police even go. Think another 6 or 12 rounds out of my snubbies S@W or a quality Charter arms will do perm damage to the pistols if I had to use them as a last resort? I think sitting in the evidence room with no cleaning will do more damage but I'm asking because I'm not sure.
 
The Aluminum framed Colt Agent held up to 400-500 of the original all white box with black printing from mid 70s.
Unlike Armsmaster270 who certainly was a hero, I was pretty much a zero as I got sanctioned for not advising the perp who pulled the PPK on me during a buy-bust to "drop the weapon" and only when he was down with the weapon secured by me did I "identify " my self as a Govt. Agent. In the very racial climate of Newark New Jersey at the time, they deported the crippled illegal back to his home country as a easy way out. I left the DEA a year later, probably too soon as they cleaned it up around 1978 or so.
I don't think the original Winchester ammo was a reliable performer with very good penetration,other agents felt that way too . When you hit COM like Armsmaster270 did it obviously works well, but that was the later Federal version.
 
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I shot a couple of boxes through a Ruger SP101 shortie, and boy did it make a fireball! It's like you got a flash/bang with every round. Within 10' and you'd light up the Bad Guy in more than one way!:what:

From what I remember reading, there is not a spec for '+P+'; it was pretty much a marketing/bragging term.
Fun to shoot, I think I still have 6 rd left.
 
Bear in mind that this was ammo that dated to before the engineered, bonded-core, controlled-expansion hollowpoints that we now have available. The only way they knew to make a hollowpoint expand while also giving acceptable penetration was to push it faster. Lighter bullets go faster than heavier bullets according to physics... Put a light bullet with a very strong charge behind it and you would get the performance that was needed.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/108345-38-p-110gr-jhp-treasury-ammo-test.html

Data in that thread leads me to a rough and generous velocity estimate of 1100 fps for the +P+ Treasury load. That gives about 296 ft/lbs ME.

Cor-Bon DPX 110-grain 38 SPL+P lists velocity of 1050 FPS and 269 ft/lbs ME.

Hornady 110-grain 38 SPL+P FTX lists 1090 fps velocity and 290 ft/lbs ME.

Speer 125-grain 38 SPL+P lists 945 fps velocity and 248 ft/lbs ME.

Federal Hydra-shok 129-grain 38 SPL+P lists 950 fps velocity and 258 ft/lbs ME.

Winchester PDX-1 130-grain 38 SPL+P (calculated) 950 fps velocity and 260 ft/lbs ME.

Speer 135-grain short barrel 38 SPL lists 860 fps velocity and 222 ft/lbs ME.

Federal Hydra-Shok 147-grain 38 SPL+P+ lists 950 or 1000 fps velocity and (calculated) 295-326 ft/lbs ME.

Data above taken from respective manufacturer's published information (not listing URLs for brevity)

The modern loads do not have the same ME as the old Treasury load, but they also don't have the same report and flash, either.
 
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The modern loads do not have the same ME as the old Treasury load, but they also don't have the same report and flash, either.
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And are more likely to expand consistently and retain weight.
 
The only factory marked +P+ ammo I’ve seen is the Federal brand 147Gr. round.
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Federal used to make a 9mm 115gr +P+ load for the Illinois State Police (9BPLE). I'm not totally sure if Federal still makes it. It was originally sold to LEOs only, but it was available on the civilian market at one point.

PR-9BPLE-2.jpg
 
I like the Ranger 110 gr JHP +P+ load out of my Model 60-12. Surprisingly, with my hands and wooden Magna grips, it shoot right to point-of-aim at 7 to 15 yards. This gun is the last of the .38 special only Model 60s, and was built with the full .357 cylinder and frame window used on current production guns.
 
I much prefer Winchester's loading as it was hotter than Federal. I carried this load for about 15 years, shot more boxes than I care to admit from a J frame and never had a problem. Winchester really did their homework on this round. They used a jhp with a hollow base. We tested some several years ago and got 1064fps from a 642, 10" of penetration with .69" expansion and 100% weight retention. Not bad for a ctg. that was made in the late 70's. This round was designed to dump 100% of it's energy into a human torso. It was about as much power as one could muster from a 1/ 7/8" barrel at the time. Supervel was actually hotter than the Winchester as was the early Corbon 110 and 115+P which was more like a mild .357.
 
Federal used to make a 9mm 115gr +P+ load for the Illinois State Police (9BPLE). I'm not totally sure if Federal still makes it. It was originally sold to LEOs only, but it was available on the civilian market at one point.
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I bought some new 9BPLE last year from ammotogo.com. It was something like $20/box, so I grabbed a box or two. It's definitely dated stuff, and not my first line defensive ammo. But it goes in the "hope I never need it" pile of ammo that is better than ball for SD, but cheap enough that I can build a little stock of it.
 
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