.357 sig

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cmhellie

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I've been loading for 10 years. All I've ever done is straightwall pistol (.45, .44, .357). Ever since I shot my first .357 sig round, I knew that it was a fun round to have and I wanted to make it, but there is so much bad that is said about its difficulty to reload. I finally decided to try it. Here's what I've done with no success (failure in that I had bullet setback every time).

Press: Dillon 550B
Dies: Dillon carbide .357 Sig
Bullet: Hornady 115 gr HAP JHP
Lube cases with One Shot (including the mouth)
Full length resize (nominal O.D on mouth is .373
Bell case mouth .005 over resized case mouth size (nominal bell size is .378)
Seated bullet to 1.145" (factory is 1.140, but this puts bullet shoulder at or below case mouth)
Crimp: I crept up on crimp in 1/4 turns, I chambered each round and checked for setback, all rounds displayed set back until crimp was so hard it collapsed the shoulder of the cartridge.

There is one step I neglected. In all of the above, I did not use any powder. I decided not to set up my dies and have to deal with powder, too.

The only two things that I can think of is:
1. Should I select a powder with a high volume so as to fill the case and minimize or eliminate setback due to a compressed load (I'm not a fan of compressed loads).
2. Should lube and size, then clean the lube and reload (is it possible that since lube is inside the case that is contributing to setback?)

I have ruined 50 bullets and cases with no success. I need to stop and ask questions.

Thanks,
CH
 
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I don't load .357 SIG, but I can tell you that crimping is not how you control bullet setback. Bullet setback is controlled by adequate case neck tension. You could be overbelling the case mouth. You only want enough belling to allow the bullet to sit on the case neck.

One of the .357 SIG experts needs to take over from here.

In handguns, crimping is used to control bullet jump, usually seen only in heavy revolver loads.
 
I have loaded a little 357 Sig without any problems and a lot of 38/45 Clerke, another bottle neck auto pistol round, also without any problems.

A crimp in an auto pistol round does not hold the bullet in place. Adding more crimp can be detrimental.

Neck tension holds the bullet in place.

First, i would try to minimize the amount the mouth is belled. Do just enough so that the bullet begins to seat ok. Chamfering the inside of the case mouth can help with this.

If you are still having problems, try reducing the diameter of your expander plug a little. Chuck the plug in a drill and sand/polish it with emory cloth. We are talking very little change like 1/2 to 1 thousandths of an inch or so.

Taper crimp just enough to remove any mouth belling, do not try to crimp into the bullet.

Hope this helps.
 
Use little or no mouth expansion, and select bullets designed for 357Sig. There is perhaps some advantage to using a slow, bulky powder to fill the case and help support the bullet. I'm not sold on that concept.
 
With 357 sig, bullet selection is the key. Bullet must have a short nose profile and a long shank. Unless your bullet meets these guidelines you will be trying to crimp your bullet on the curvature of the nose. This only makes your problems worse since it tends to push the bullet deeper into the case. Also, a heavy charge, 11 to 13 grains of AA-9 depending upon bullet weight, helps to prevent bullet set-back. There is a page, "Petes 357 sig page", I do not know how to insert a link, that will explain everything much better than I can.
 
I guess I just got lucky, I did use Speers sig specific bullets and did my loading on a single stage since I am not as of yet loading the sig in bulk amounts. Beyond that I am quite satisfied with the results. Are you using 357 brass and bullets?
 
Metallic cartriges are held together with friction. If you interfere with friction through lubrication, you will compromise cartridge structural integrity. You should clean out all the lube from the case neck. You should use nickel brass. Nickel grabs onto copper better than brass does. You can also roll the bullets inbetween two files to impart a texture on the bullet shank. Do not expand the necks, bell only. Get a Lee Universal Expander die for this. It will take 10 minutes to make one round, but you won't see any bullet setback.
 
cmhellie said:
I chambered each round and checked for setback, all rounds displayed set back ...
Click to expand...

Even factory 357 Sig ammo will setback. And each time you rack the same round it slams against the feed ramp and gets progressively worse.

You should measure bullet tension by pressing a loaded round against a bathroom scale....you want to exert at least 40lbs of pressure on the bullet before it sets back into the case.

Make sure your brass is absolutely clean. Residual brass polish from tumbling will act as a lubricant. Same goes for bullets that you handle with oily fingers.

Don't rely on bulky powders to solve your setback issues.
 
The tension to hold a bullet comes from the neck resizing.
If you're getting consistent set back, one of two things is happening.
Either your resizing die is wrong, or the bullets are undersized.

I know I have problems with remington brand 223 bullets.
That's the only brand I've seen that it's easy to push on the bullet.
I've tried 3 or 4 other brands & they work perfectly.
 
As a sig lover, I use AA9 because the bullet basically is supported with the powder. Pretty much every round of 357 sig I shoot is AA9 with either a Rem 124 or 115 jhp lately. I used to shoot a lot of 88 grn and 90 grn JHP's with max charges. I called them "screamers" as they went very fast (over 1700 fps) and were accurate. I decided they might be doing some abuse to my 229 sport comp so I quit firing them.

Anyway, go with AA9, don't try to hold the bullet with the crimp, support it and use a bullet with a long shank.
 
Since you are loading jacketed bullets, just eliminate belling the mouth entirely and instead just chamfer the inside of the mouth evenly to accommodate seating without shaving. Then just seat without crimping at all, it's really that simple. That will give you the maximum amount of neck tension obtainable.

The crimp on AL rimless cartridges, or those which originally head space on the mouth, is intended only to remove the belling of the mouth, nothing more. And even though the 357 sig might head space off the shoulder when reloaded, it still relies on neck tension, not the crimp. And when one crimps beyond that point, they will only degrade neck tension even more, and as you've discovered, destroy brass and bullets too.

And although using a powder such as AA#9 will give you a good density which will help prevent set back, but it sure isn't the correct way to solve your problem, which BTW is inadequate neck tension.

GS
 
GS,

Sometimes (357 Sig is a good example) the fix is more trouble than it is worth if the workaround is easy. AA9, Rem or Seirra JHP's or even MBC Lead TC's, Dillon carbide dies, hornady one shot. They all come together to make the 357 Sig one of the easiest round I reload. I actually worry more about double charges in the 38 special than any apsect of my 357 sig rounds.

After now loading about 13,000 rounds of 357 Sig, I just don't see that trying to fix the setback problem by chamfering each case and piddling with the crimp is worth the effort. Just avoid the whole setback issue by using AA9 and the right bullet and you got it made.

Same issue with headspace. I don't care what the SAAMI says I should headspace on. I only have one 357 Sig, so I carefully adjusted my dies so I headspace on the shoulder and ignore the case length and crimp issue. Again, because I rely on a carefully worked out set of easy combinations.

I am not meaning to critique your comments. You are correct in your statements and I agree with them. I just don't apply them in this case.

Oh as a side comment, by headspacing on the shoulder, I noted that my brass got shorter so I am running short of COL on all of my cases. It works well.

Now for gratuitous 357 Sig porn shots.

229sport_mags.jpg

As I said I am a big fan of the 357 Sig. I loved it so much I bought another top end to my 229 Sport just so I would have spare parts when I wore out my original. When I shoot I tend to shoot a lot hence the reason for the 10 mags.
 
Thanks to all who commented. I am going to do the following:
1. Lube cases, resize/deprime and tumble for 10 min
2. Reduce the bell to absolute minimum (hopefully none, but I still need to activate the charge bar on my powder measure and the powder funnel on the Dillon 550B is what bells the case)
3. I may use AA#9 only because it reduces my powder inventory as I already use it on .44 Mag. I have trouble using the powder as a fall back position. I had one compressed charge (actually accidental double charge) that nearly cost me a hand (gun went bye bye) and I learned well that powder is not a toy
4. I am going to crimp the case mouth to equal the same size as it was after resizing (I talked to Dillon about that and the tech advised me to use that as a benchmark)

BTW, I checked my expander ball and it's diameter is less that the case mouth. Someone needs to splain to me how in the heck that works.

Thanks again all.

CH
 
cmhellie said:
BTW, I checked my expander ball and it's diameter is less that the case mouth. Someone needs to splain to me how in the heck that works.
Click to expand...

The inside diameter of the case mouth before or after resizing?

If the inside diameter of the case mouth after resizing is larger than the expander ball, that's a problem. You may not be getting enough resizing of the case mouth to get the required neck tension.
 
cfullgraf said:
The inside diameter of the case mouth before or after resizing?

If the inside diameter of the case mouth after resizing is larger than the expander ball, that's a problem. You may not be getting enough resizing of the case mouth to get the required neck tension.
Click to expand...
before sizing case mouth is .349 ID
after sizing case mouth is .344 ID
diameter of expander ball .327 OD
 
OK, that's good news cuz the expander only bells. Many expanders expand and bell. You don't need any expanding.

You will be better off wet tumbling in stainless media. Dry tumbling does not remove carbon and lube from the inside of the case. Carbon also acts like a lubricant. What you're doing right now is hoping the media will absorb the lube from the inside of the case. That does not always happen.

Stainless, on the other hand, cleans the case inside and out. You end up with a pristine case neck with the most potential for bullet retention. Do it right. Don't sacrifice quality for expediency.
 
I load my 357 Sig rounds almost exactly like Peter does, and I've also loaded over 13,000 rounds of it. The only exception to Peter's method is I use different bullets, but they are intended for 357 Sig.

I've never had the problems encountered by others with this caliber, but I've been reloading for 50 years and load for 31 different calibers, so I may have approached it differently than someone just starting out. This caliber has never been a problem for me and I very much enjoy shooting it in my Springfield XD and Witness. When I chambered the barrel for the Witness, I made sure it was the same headspace as the XD, which helped a lot, but the XD shoots tighter with 124/125 gr. bullets and the Witness shoots tighter with 115 gr. bullets.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Bullet setback depends on the gun. Some guns feed the rounds pretty much straight into the chamber. Others bounce them off the feedramp to a greater degree. While you may not have experienced this problem does not mean it isn't a problem.
 
Problems

The problems I am hearing about here are the very same problems I had when I first tried to load 7.62x25 Tokarev.I was ruining more cases than I was loading.I stopped trying to seat and crimp in one operation. I found that by seating all bullets first and then crimping in a single operation was the answer.I have large RCBS press and was not being gentle when I was seating or crimping was part of my problem.I find that if something doesn't feel right I just back off and maybe adjust the die a very small amount,I can load a whole tray (50) without ruining any cases. I know this is a different cartridge but the operation should be very similar to the 357 Sig. Your mileage of course may vary.You have a progressive press and my methods may not work with a Dillion.
 
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Oh, no problem Peter, I completely understand your analogy and approach to what works for you. I personally prefer using powders like AA#9 myself, but for different reasons.

As for what I was suggesting is to completely eliminate the bell & crimp, and just seat into a case that has only seen a sizing die to maximize neck tension. I know the .357 sig is difficult cartridge to deal with regarding bullet set back, it's the nature of the beast. Chamfering only takes a second or two with each case, and only needs to be done the first time to remove any sharp edge that might shave bullets with an occasional touch up when necessary.

But if using a supporting powder charge works for some, go for it.

GS
 
How long of a tumble with SS media. I've heard mixed reviews about making cases too clean in that the brass can accumulate on dies. I have two tumblers and can devote the one I don't use to the SS media. What about tumbling in media with a detergent like Dawn? When you say wet tumbling, how wet? How long do you wait for brass to dry before loading? Do you dry them in the oven?

Thanks.
 
When I wet tumble cases, it is after resisizing so no issues with the dies. I do not see any issue with carbide dies. One may need to insure proper lubrication with steel dies.

I let the wet tumbler run 4 to 6 hours, but that fits my schedule. The cases may be adequately cleaned in less time.

How wet is wet? The cases are fully immersed in water. Does that give you an idea how wet they are?

I let cases air dry. I spread them out on a towel to dry. I may stir them a bit after eight to twelve hours in case there are some drops of water in the cases. I let them dry for several days and make sure there is no water left inside the cases. I generally resize and clean cases shortly after shooting and store them away for a future loading session.

I do not oven dry them because I do not need to. Some folks do but you want to keep the temp low, I'd say 200 degrees as a max.

You do not want any water left int the cases.

Hop this helps.
 
I tumble overnight. Cases come out looking like new. Whoever told you that too clean is bad prolly referring to the accumulation of brass on the expander plug. Normally, carbon fouling remains inside the case after tumbling in corn or walnut. This carbon acts like a lubricant for the expander. No carbon and the expander will get brassed. So what?

In the case of the 357 Sig, we want zero carbon inside the case. We want maximum friction. Therefore wet tumbling is highly desirable.
 
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