Question on HR218

lonewolf5347 · Mar 17, 2014

I like to ask can I leaglly transport a pistol back to my primary resident under the HR218 and my I.D. Retired Law-enforcement
I do have a CCP from my primary resident (Retired P.O.) The gun in question is not on my CCP
N.Y.S. list all handguns on the back of my permit:This gun was purchased with a Gun Permit from another state I spend my winter months

Sam1911 · Mar 17, 2014

Just to clarify:

You are a retired law enforcement officer, qualified to carry a handgun throughout the country under HR218.

You have residences in two states? So you're legally able to purchase a handgun in either state, while you're residing in that state.

One of your states of residence is New York. You hold a pistol permit in New York State, and it lists your handguns on it?

You've bought a handgun in your alternate state of residence, and now want to know if it is lawful to take that handgun back with you into New York State?

Sam1911 · Mar 17, 2014

It looks like you need to talk to your local PD.

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-york.aspx

Elsewhere than the City of New York, a person licensed to carry or possess a pistol or revolver may apply at any time to the licensing officer in the county of their residence for amendment of his or her license to include one or more such handguns or to remove a handgun held under the license.

I'm unclear about whether you have to have the pistol on your license before you return to the state or if you can bring it in and then have X number of days to get it added.

You'll probably have to ask them, unless others here have been through that process.

Midwest · Mar 17, 2014

It is my understanding that one cannot bring a pistol into NY State under any circumstances unless it is through a FFL.

EDIT: Found this.........

http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/pi...nging-pistol-purchased-another-state-nys.html

"To bring a pistol into the state from out of state, it still has to go through an FFL. To get it on your license, you get a slip from the FFL in NY to give to the licensing authority, they put it on your license and give you slip to give to FFL to get possession of the gun."

.

.

Sam1911 · Mar 17, 2014

So you transfer it from you, c/o your FFL in your winter state of residence, TO you, c/o your FFL in your summer state of residence, then he holds it while you get it on your permit and then you can go pick it up?

Sounds...efficient.

lonewolf5347 · Mar 17, 2014

I think I will just leave it in my second home when I return back to n.y.s.

ngnrd · Mar 17, 2014

So... a retired LEO doesn't know, and is asking anonymous strangers on an Internet forum for advice regarding the legalities of transferring a firearm? Well, if LEO's can't navigate their way through this labyrinth, it is certainly no wonder Joe Sixpac runs into problems trying to properly navigate the current system.

Not being judgemental - just making a point.

(And, for the record, I have no idea what the correct answer is. Have you tried buying a vowel?) :uhoh:

dogrunner · Mar 17, 2014

You need to qualify to the standards in the State in which you reside. Alternately you can return to your former Department and qualify to their or their State's standards.

You must have a police ID from your former agency, plus you must qualify yearly as to the State in which you live police qualification standards. You MUST meet the criteria as a QUALIFIED retired officer.....read the statute.

By the way, forget 218......google LEOSA.........it'll give you all the info you need.

Incidentally, with the qualification card and valid ID you are good to go in all the States and U.S. Territories.

Sam1911 · Mar 18, 2014

dogrunner, that's all fine for qualifying to carry, but that isn't actually the question he asked. His question is really all about legally transferring a handgun into New York State. LEOSA doesn't actually come into play.

dogrunner · Mar 18, 2014

Sam, it doesn't matter. He, if qualified, is exempt from state and local law dealing with the carriage of concealed firearms.......to carry must necessarily include possess.

If, for example, you are a qualified retired LEO and you decide to spend half your time in state A and half in state B......you can transport and carry in either when and if you wish.

Again, google and read LEOSA.

Sam1911 · Mar 18, 2014

Dogrunner, it does NOT, however, appear to grant you permission to possess a firearm that is not lawful to possess in your state.

That's the problem. To transfer that handgun into New York State and possess it as a New York resident, he has to go through NYS's approved process to do so. Yes, he can carry a firearm on his LEOSA-qualified credentials, but he doesn't get a pass on the rest of NYS gun laws because of it.

I understand why universal possession of a firearm might be implied by LEOSA, but I don't think that means the individual may disregard all other state gun laws.

dogrunner · Mar 18, 2014

Again Sam, read the law as written. It specifically states that a LEOSA qualified person........active or retired........IS exempt from all state or local laws dealing with concealed firearms carriage.....you can't divorce carry from possess!

There are minor exceptions in that the law does provide that once can't carry in Gov't buildings/parks & so forth when prohibited but in general terms LEOSA overrides nearly all state law.

The latest revision even OK'd certain ammo types as being legitimate under LEOSA......ie: HP in N.J..

Oh yeah, relative to the 'firearm not lawful to possess in your state' issue. Apparently it does IF you've qualified with that particular piece. I read some commentary on CalGuns and another law enforcement oriented site that indicate an out of state officer that'd qualified with an otherwise illegal to have AR 15 configurations could, and likely would be LEOSA covered.....

Certainly tho, in the OP's position an ordinary pistol or revolver would not pose an issue in and of itself.......

Sam1911 · Mar 18, 2014

you can't divorce carry from possess!

Well that makes "normal logic" sense, but that's not always how the law works. I know I'm being sticky on this, but I'd like to see some case law or an actual legal finding that addresses something like this.

Specifically, a resident of a state, having in his possession a firearm that he could not otherwise lawfully possess because his LEOSA credential covers him.

Your CA AR-15 point would be a good one to try this out on. Can a retired CA Sheriff's deputy (or whomever) build himself a standard configuration AR-15 and claim LEOSA as his protection from prosecution?

dogrunner · Mar 18, 2014

Sam, you might want to try the Police Magazine .com site. They have a section on the LEOSA/218 issue that was fairly up to date last time I looked at it.

Also, the national FOP website had some info as well.

Far as case law, the first one that comes to my mind is the case where some Seattle officers shot and killed a biker in a bar in Sturgis SD a couple of years back. Apparently SD has a law prohibiting carriage in bars & they were charged (possibly other charges as well) and that case was summarily dismissed with citation to LEOSA.

Lemme' say for clarity.......I am NOT a lawyer, I am a retired CLEO and my opinions on the law are just that, my opinions. I do not intend to render legal advice, merely explain the law as I interpret it and how I abide by it.

As an afterthought tho, the one area that (unless it's changed and I haven't read about it) could create a problem for a LEOSA carrier might be the large mag. capacity issue. I have read that some question of their legality might exist in certain jurisdictions as they are not specifically addressed in the law. I'm kinda surprised at that as the HP issue was a real concern for some fella's on the Police Mag. site & with the FOP push to modify the statute. Mayitbe that's changed too, anyone know?

Sam1911 · Mar 18, 2014

Well, that brings up a good point. If LEOSA superscedes almost all state gun laws, then having 17 or 19 round capacity magazines would not be a problem in NY or CA, right? Or 30-rounders for your otherwise-CA-illegal AR-15? Is that really how it works?

(I realize you may not know. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just explore the limits of how this law really works.)

dogrunner · Mar 18, 2014

Ok, the back and forth on the subject got my curiosity up and I went to the police magazine site just now.

Good article, case law citations and a really good overview with several cases I'd forgotten are mentioned....worth a read.

Scroll down to the bottom of the home page & you'll see mention of LEOSA.

And the article does mention the various weapon types.

Frank Ettin · Mar 18, 2014

dogrunner said:
Ok, the back and forth on the subject got my curiosity up and I went to the police magazine site just now....

Are you a lawyer? Where are you licensed to practice law? Has the OP engaged you to provide legal advice? Have you read all relevant statutes, both federal and New York State? Have you read the cases dealing with those statutes and the related legal issues?

If the OP pays attention to you and you are wrong, the OP risks arrest in New Your on what is in New York a very serious charge. He will need to hire a lawyer and pay something like $300.00 an hour, or perhaps more depending on the going rate for good representation. He could wind up spending $10,000, $20,000, $100,000 or even more on legal fees and expenses. And he could still lose and see his whole future go down the toilet.

I am a lawyer and have dealt with serious matters, and these sorts of stakes, in real life. I would not consider saying the sorts of things you are saying unless/until I had done a thorough job of research, as alluded to in the first paragraph of my post.

Sol · Mar 18, 2014

^Dogrunner clearly states he is NOT a lawyer and even gives a little disclaimer in post #14.

OP, if you can afford to live in 2 states, you can probably afford a consultation fee with a lawyer in the respective state in question.

Just get a lawyer and clarify the muddy waters for yourself, you could save yourself a hassle in the future and maybe help others with the same question.

Midwest · Mar 18, 2014

it doesn't matter. He, if qualified, is exempt from state and local law dealing with the carriage of concealed firearms.......to carry must necessarily include possess.

Here is the issue and it seems specific to New York State Gun Laws and listing handguns on the back of the permit.

The OP said that his handguns are listed in the back of his permit, except for the one he wants to bring into NY. (Presumably he wants to add that new handgun onto his permit)

I do have a CCP from my primary resident (Retired P.O.) The gun in question is not on my CCP N.Y.S. list all handguns on the back of my permit

That appears to be the issue that the OP is referring to.... NY State law and HIS permit (that lists handguns on his pistol permit) in NY State. He is a NY state resident and I am/was assuming that the OP wanted to add the pistol he acquired elsewhere on his NYS Permit.

I like to ask can I leaglly transport a pistol back to my primary resident under the HR218 and my I.D. Retired Law-enforcement

If the OP was living in another state and wanted to transport his pistol to or through NY in his travels for whatever purpose, he can under LEOSA. And because he is traveling under LEOSA he does not have to list his handguns on his permit AFAIK.

But he is a resident of New York State. Under LEOSA he can carry anywhere...but...NY STATE requires that pistols have to be added to the permit. But the OP has to be legal first to qualify under LEOSA...

NYS requires it's residents to list their handguns on their NYS permit.
I believe he was asking about legally bring back the pistol to NY to use in NY State as a resident under his NY State Pistol Permit.

I gave the answer from the nyfirearms.com site which was that he would have to go through an FFL to add it on to his NYS Pistol Permit.

The situation is unique for two points # 1 because NY State might be the only place that requires that pistols be listed in back of the permit...#2 because the OP wanted to add the gun to his NYS permit that he legally acquired elsewhere.

Please check out this site and ask the same question there. They deal with all these questions all the time.

http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/pistol-permits/

dogrunner · Mar 18, 2014

Frank: Every scintilla of info I transmited in posts was based on the memorandum posted by legal counsel at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement on that precise subject. (see that agency web site re: LEOSA/HR218)

I don't practice law, I try to abide by it as best I understand it. By your logic no person, less admitted to the bar could state any opinion or information relative to the law.

I provided a clear disclaimer relative to your concern in a previous post.

Sam1911 · Mar 18, 2014

I did read that article and am quite interested in this issue now.

Apparently, at least one case used LESOA to set aside an NFA violation!

In People v. Peterson out of the Twelfth Judicial Circuit, Will County, Ill., the defendant was indicted for the class 3 felony of Unlawful Use of a Weapon for knowingly possessing a modified rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. The court dismissed the case, finding that LEOSA applied to the defendant, ...

Credentials on the author...

James M. Baranowski is Associate Litigation Counsel at the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action and a member of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA). He is a decorated combat veteran, having served in the United States Marine Corps both as an officer with 1st Reconnaissance Battalion and as a judge advocate.

Frank Ettin · Mar 18, 2014

Sol said:
^Dogrunner clearly states he is NOT a lawyer and even gives a little disclaimer in post #14....

I know, but was being insistent on his view, a view which could put one in serious legal jeopardy if incorrect. So I wanted to emphasize the point.

Sol said:
...OP, if you can afford to live in 2 states, you can probably afford a consultation fee with a lawyer in the respective state in question.

Just get a lawyer and clarify the muddy waters for yourself,...

And that is the best advice.

Neo-Luddite · Mar 18, 2014

I doubt anyone will ever get a satisfactory answer regarding this as LEOSA basically gives a qualified person the ability to carry a normal title 1 (non-NFA) firearm almost anywhere and , in the process, sets one up for scenarios like the OP had faced; and he decided to play things safe it would seem~ not a bad idea. There is not a lot of solid guidance about situations like this and LEOSA and LE knowledge of what the law allows and who exactly is covered can be spotty in some places. Chicago, when the new handgun (post early 80's) registration ban was in effect would not allow qualified persons residing in the city to register handguns but did recognize their right to have them under LEOSA. Not at all the same situation, I know--but just an example of how mixed up things can be when Federal law trumps local law without a plan for meshing the two together. Anyway..... prosecutions for simply carrying under LEOSA for those who fall under the law have been very few if any and I've never read of someone otherwise qualified being prosecuted for carrying when and where the law entitles them to. When you need to understand a law you should be able to 'read the statute, read the statute, read the statute' and be satisfied you have a handle on things but such isn't so often the case anymore I guess.

Frank Ettin · Mar 18, 2014

dogrunner said:
...Every scintilla of info I transmited in posts was based on the memorandum posted by legal counsel at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement on that precise subject. (see that agency web site re: LEOSA/HR218)...

But was that looking at this exact issue involving a resident of New York State with a New York State handgun permit? Did that specifically address New York State law? Did whoever wrote the article read and consider potentially applicable New York State and Second Circuit judicial decisions.

...I don't practice law, I try to abide by it as best I understand it. By your logic no person, less admitted to the bar could state any opinion or information relative to the law....

Sometimes that might be the case. It's one thing to talk about legal topics in general terms, but it's quite another to respond to a direct question about a real person's actual legal responsibilities.

If someone asks a lawyer a question about a real life situation and what he might be legally required or able to do in that situation, and if the lawyer understands that the person is likely to rely on that information and take particular actions based on that advice, and if the person could get into serious trouble if he does the wrong thing, then the lawyer has particular professional and ethical obligations to do proper research and give a professionally appropriate and reliable answer.

You as a non-lawyer are not subject to such constraints, but I still consider it irresponsible to tell someone what he needs to do or doesn't need to do to be legally compliant without professionally adequate research.

For the OP this isn't a game. This is his life and future. He needs real legal direction from someone professionally qualified.

dogrunner said:
...I provided a clear disclaimer relative to your concern in a previous post.

Yes, you provided a disclaimer. But that disclaimer basically makes all your posts useless to the OP. He is not asking an academic question. He is looking for real advice and direction.

Bottom line is that the OP should consult a qualified lawyer in New York State.

Gary Slider · Mar 18, 2014

Lonewolf5437,

I highly recommend you go to this site
http://www.hr218leosa.com/
Pay the $10 and get the class materials via download and then sign up for the next Live Seminar at that site.
It will be the best money you have spent and will answer every question you have about carrying under LEOSA.
I am in no way connected to this site and make no money from sending people to him. He just does the best job at explaining all the ins and outs of LEOSA. He is an ex Police Officer, Attorney and now is a Federal Magistrate so he has the knowledge and likes to share it.

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